76: Jorge Ferrer on Sexual Deconditioning & Transcending Mind by Integrating Instinct, Consciousness & Values of the Heart

Jorge Ferrer – Website
Love and  Freedom – Book
Novogamia – Book
Jorge Ferrer – Training

ISTA
Marnia Robinson – Cupid’s Poisoned Arrow
Dearmouring
Gabor Maté – Transgenerational Trauma
Mapuche people
David Deida
Adi Da Samraj
Sam Harris – Trungpa Rinpoche
Amoral Trickster vs Mystic-Saint
Charles Manson
Moksha
Carl Jung – Answer to Job
Amanda Feilding 
Thomas Moore – Quote
Alejandro Jodorowsky – Psychomagic
Erotise

Giancarlo: [00:00:00] Hello. Hi. Welcome to this new episode of the Mango TV podcast Today I am so grateful to Hoge Ferre that most of you already know, because this is the third time on the podcast. And, and so today we’re gonna try something different. I went to tantra retreat, level one and level two. I was asked to leave before the end of level two, and since then I’ve been very [00:01:00] confused.

Therefore, I thought, who can help me to unpack this state of mind? And I thought about Jorge. For some of you who don’t remember him, I’m gonna quickly read the bio. Again, a new bio. Hoge Ferre PhD is a Spanish American psychologist, renowned for his pioneering work in transpersonal psychology and the integration of spirituality and sexuality.

A former professor at the California Institute of Integral Studies, he developed a participatory approach emphasizing embodied relational and pluralistic understandings of spiritual and sexual experiences. Fare coined the term NoMy to describe relational models that transcend the traditional monogamy polyamory bin.

Promoting more inclusive and authentic connections. His notable works include Love and Freedom and Novo Gaia, where he explores [00:02:00] the intersection of love, freedom, and spiritual intimacy. Through his international counseling practice, Ferre supports individuals and couples in navigating infidelity.

Jealousy, sexual incompati, incompati, incompatibilities, and open relationship aiming to foster conscious and fulfilling intimate lives. Welcome, Jorge.

Jorge: Thank you very much. And Carlos, a pleasure to be here with you again.

Giancarlo: Yes, I, I really am so grateful to, for your, for our, for your friendship and your guidance.

So, you know, as people heard, it seems the perfect cange seems the perfect candidate to help me to. Makes sense of what I just gone through. So how should we do this, Jorge? How I will let you drive it?

Jorge: It would help a lot if you start by telling a bit of a narrative of what happened, [00:03:00] what was the context, what did you go through what are the challenges that you came out from that kind of retreat and any kind of challenging experience there. What were your perceptions? What happened?

Giancarlo: Okay, so maybe we should start, you know, from the beginning. This is a specific tantra school. I dunno if I need to mention it or not, but anyhow, for people that know, it’s gonna be very recognizable. Anyhow, I went 13, 13 years ago. To level one. It was in Denmark at the time.

And I went with, with my wife. She was not my wife then, but you know, I think we already had a child or just before having a child. Anyhow, so we went from New York, we flew all the way. To Denmark from New York. Actually I wrote a blog about this that you can find on the Mango TV blog. We flew all the way and we sign up for both level [00:04:00] one and level two because there are three days each and the format has not changed.

So we went, okay. Okay, let’s, let’s from, for full disclosure, the reason why my wife and I went is because we heard. Someone who quoted the founder of this school, Alex Bartman, saying that if you want to do a long-term monogamous relationship, you need to stop ejaculating. Men should stop ejaculating and woman should stop having cery day and orgasm.

If you want a long-term monogamous relationship, you need to learn. This other type of orga, which is non ejaculatory for him, non cli and for her, which is a full body orgasm. And, and this person said that supposedly, I still haven’t found evidence of that, but supposedly with the peak orga, so [00:05:00] ejaculatory for him and c Clid and for her you have a drop in three neurotransmitter.

Dopamine and oxytocin and lactose. So you don’t feel connected with the person. You don’t feel good about yourself. And you know, there’s all these jokes. You know, when you come, you want your wife to be transforming to a pizza and a tv, all these jokes, right? So it’s true that outside of the honeymoon you know, like these peak organs cannot be the most bonding, but.

Anyhow. So I said, Stephanie, we want to be together forever, monogamously, and exclusively, let’s go and do the retreat. So we went, we did level one, and I felt not super connected with the type of teaching it was, you know, a little bit already back then. I felt a little, a little, you know, confrontational. You know, Alex Mann.

Pretend to be or, or, or, or claim to have been trained in the crazy wisdom [00:06:00] tradition. We, we gonna get there. But anyhow, we, we, we had fun with, with, with Stephanie, but I didn’t, maybe I wasn’t even ready, but, you know, basically I was, I didn’t pass level one. I didn’t pass level one. Stephanie passed level one, but of course we were together and so we basically flew back.

I was not admitted to level two and, and that was it. Fast forward 13 years after, you know, I had, as you know, I developed a a a, I belonged to a mystery school called ista. Where, where it’s a, it is another type of tantra school. For some reason I was attracted to. TNT again, I wanted to do level two again because I felt I wanted something more hands-on, more practical.

So I sign up this time on my own with my wife blessing, of course, with some restriction, and I went right. So what was my objectives in going on [00:07:00] my own? So. I’ve been working with Ista. I’m very interested and I’m a student of this practice of also thanks to, to you, Jorge, with the, the workshop we did together.

I believe that this sexual energy is a sacred energy that I personally have been abusing. And so you know, these neo tantra schools, they help you to. Develop a better relationship with this energy and, and, and transforming into like a secret practice and, and and how is it going? You know, it’s hard, it’s difficult, but slowly, as slowly we’re pro I’m progressing.

You know, it’s not easy to deal ejaculatory retention is difficult and. Maybe I’m gonna try to speed up a little bit here, otherwise people are gonna get bored, but, so I wanted something a little bit more hands-on, more practical. A friend of mine went recently and she said, listen, you know, if you [00:08:00] want to learn this technique and if you want to be confronted with this, with this practices of, of, of sexual deconditioning, I think it’s very good.

So she basically encouraged me to go, I went, I, you know, I passed level one this time. And level two for me. I felt, I felt I was, I was, the, this, I was, I was not comfortable with the level of, of, of, of, of engagement. You know, I was not comfortable with the level of, you know, of intimacy, of group intimacy, of, you know, there was no pressure really, but, you know, the peer pressure was there.

I, I felt I felt a little bit unease in, in participating in, in, in this very. Explicit and, and, and, and graphic exercises. I’m gonna stop here for a second.

Jorge: Okay. Maybe I’ll just comment about what you say for, and then we’ll move [00:09:00] forward. Like you know, the whole, the whole thing about the practice of no orgasm for long-term mono success.

There is something to it. There is something to it. There is a wonderful book Marnia Robinson called Cups Poison Arrow. Oh wow. And in this book, she develops this both droning from, from traditions, from Christian ESO traditions, from Doist traditions, but also from contemporary neuroscience and sex research.

So basically what she found out is that is that when, when a man, but not only a man, a woman. Two, they reach, and I mean, of course during the first one, two, even three years, you know, reaching organs together, it bonds the couple. But what he’s saying, and he brings a lot of documentation, is that after certain number of years, you know, our genes, you know, they’re giving subliminal message to our brains and our hearts like saying like, you know, the procreation time for this couple you know, there, it’s, it’s done.

So then you should just. Move forward to [00:10:00] propagate your semen. In the case of men and stuff, you know, so it says like the gene says, the gene says that because evolutionary programming. Yes, exactly. So see this thing between sex with orgasm, that is more for procreation of, for obvious reasons, you know?

Culation, the semen are also a woman with an organs. There is greater chances to get pregnant, you know, and sex without organs. That is for bonding. Bonding the capital. When sometimes I recommend like these practices with clients, I. That they have been together many, many years that Levi has gone down and they want to stay together.

So apart from the possibilities of open relationships that has a different story, these practices can help people, I call them protocols of trans orgasmic sex in which they, they do. And there’s some protocols that people to, to come together to stand being sexual with each other. But whenever they’re gonna be reaching genital orgasm, the powers.

Then they help each other spreading the [00:11:00] energy from the genital area through the body as if you were spreading like a bat on a toast, so to speak. You know, uhhuh through the legs so that the body start learning to, to be nourished, be nurtured by all that energy and the compulsion to organs stops or minimizes.

And what she found out is in hers. And there is a lot of. Testimonials in her website is that for many couples of course when they start practicing this, the lido for each other and their feelings of falling in love for each other increases again. And sometimes they do have an orga and it’s for two, three weeks.

There’s like a cys map. It’s a whole neurochemical cascade in the brain. That that leads for two, three weeks after the orga to start finding more falls in your partner to start looking at other women in the case of men and so forth. So that’s kind of really well mapped out. That doesn’t mean that orga should be out of the picture, I think like balance between some sexual encounters without orgasm and some [00:12:00] with organs.

It’s a very good it’s very good also for men, for prostate and stuff, you know. But of course, this is just one school of thought. You have also Nicole, do DNO with one taste practices, you know, in LA and New York now I think the school is closed. And it was a friend of mine in California and I knew all her story and she was promoting female orgasm spiritual practice, you know, and that was for her was the organs was the key to unveil the secrets of the universe, you know, and the spiritual enlight

a on the. On the upper right side of the clitoris in particular, you know? Yeah. Yeah. So so there’s different schools of thoughts, but makes experience with clients and what I read from marnis testimonials from many, many couples. There is something about for couples have been together for many years to also combine.

Sexuality with orga with times in which they just come together to bond. And [00:13:00] also that can also open different types of sexual experience and spiritual experience. When you don’t have an orgasm the energy circulates more in the body. You have like heart, heart. Organs, you know, mouth, organs, but different types, you know, so there is an, it’s an exploration, it’s an interesting exploration as well, you know, so that’s what I could say about that particular thing.

But I would be interested in learning more of what happened. This level two, for you, what was the most challenging for you? What happened there? What was the, a messiness with the practice? What, what was the red flags for you?

Giancarlo: You know, there was, it was a, it was a big group. It was a, it was a nice group, beautiful people.

I felt, you know, okay. The, the, maybe, you know, there was some exercises also, I, I’m a little bit resistant. I don’t, I don’t want to maybe disclose too much. But you know, I’m, I, I just want to, to [00:14:00] make the premises that I feel that it’s a very useful. School. The, the facilitator were extremely caring and professional and I would still recommend this, this, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s not, it’s not a critic of the school.

But for me personally, there was some moment where there was some intimate exercise, you know, from. De armoring, anal de armoring, squirting something where you get paired with total strangers and, and you know, I did my best to be in service. You know, like one of the, one of the principle of this school is to be in service.

But for me, I couldn’t really be a hundred percent present. You know, I felt that there was. It was a, it was a form of intimacy without the connection, the psychological connection, not even psychological, but [00:15:00] even energetic with, you know, for, for me, I felt a little bit unease in, in, in working in this very intimate situation with Stranges.

I didn’t really have, yes, any type of rapport. And as I say this, I realize that. It’s my limitation. Maybe it’s my conditioning. Because why would you want to be in service? And just because it’s a more humid environment than a head massage. You know? It’s such a, I feel such a conditioning in a way. You know, I, I, that’s why I’m so confused, because mm-hmm.

Why was I not able to be so present? So I think two, three things really bothered them that, you know, sometimes I will get distracted in one exercise. Of, of, of vaginal disarming. There was a lot of noise in the room because it, you know, it is not designed for pleasure. Right. It’s designed for release and healing and some ladies were screaming and some other, some other [00:16:00] ladies were moaning.

And I, I, I, I look around. Mm-hmm. I think only once, but, and so I, I, I catch the facilitator gaze and, and she said, listen, you need to be present. And, and I go then, then, you know, at night. When there was like the free fall of, you know, the free flow and, and people were exploring with each other, I didn’t feel so much mm-hmm.

To explore. And so I was, I was always a little bit removed. Yeah. You know, and then there was one exercise where, you know, you had to shave each other in the, in, in, in, in your, you know, your, your private part and. I was like, okay. They, I don’t remember them saying that, you know, you could not do it, but it’s a usual thing.

It’s like, okay, maybe, maybe, of course you could have said no, but you feel the pressure and I felt a little exposed. Mm-hmm. You know, they, they. They partner me with some more professional. And anyhow, as I speak [00:17:00] with you now, I realize that it’s all my own insecurity and conditioning. Hold on. So maybe I should, I should, I should go back and finish hold.

Jorge (2): Why don’t you tell me what’s the rationale that they offer? For the annual, the armoring and the scrutiny practices. You mentioned release healing. What, because I mean, they are, they’re very profound and very like intimate, but also vulnerable practices. So what’s, what’s, what’s their goal? Why they believe they are good things for everybody.

Giancarlo: I mean, you know, it’s the same practice in the other school, you know east High is the same practices. Yeah. And, and, and it’s, it’s always the same thing. It’s like, you know, like we retain a lot of, of, of, of tension in our inner right by definition. Like, you know what’s the term they use, you know anal retentive, you know, Freud was talking about that.

This idea that. You know, you get a lot of stress on your tie. [00:18:00] You know, like he’s got the Paul in his ass. There’s all these, I mean, there’s all these express expression. So the release of your sphincter is associated with some sort of surrender and trust. Mm-hmm. Okay. And also, many men. Many men, they really.

Say that, you know, they were very close the up, you know, down there, but then with the right exercise, they discover a new horizon of pleasure through the prostate. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that’s possible. And yeah, go ahead. That’s, that’s one. And, and, and, and, you know, for the, for, for the, also the vaginal, the armoring, they, they explain you, you know, how it’s, it’s this idea also like Nicole though then that you mentioned this idea for women.

To, to be able to receive in complete surrender without any pressure to do anything. And that would allow them to completely relax [00:19:00] and, and, and, and focus on the feelings and mm-hmm. And, and, and that state it is healing, you know? Mm-hmm. People were crying. Yes. And, and, and, and I, I, I, I can see the benefit.

Yeah. I wasn’t maybe super. Yeah. Me. Yeah. I mean, what they, when they ask me to leave, they say, listen, there’s nothing, you know, you reach your limit. Yes. So my question, my question is that, is that the limit that I have to keep on pushing? Mm-hmm. Or, or not. Okay. Let me, this is a couple of things here because No, I understand where, where they are coming from and there is a lot there.

There is some definitively like you know, healing that can happen in those areas, in those practices. The thing is like you know, in my experience and my research, like the, the energetic contents that get accumulated in the anus, the anus is in a way, is like the, the farthest away from our consciousness.

You know, it’s like a, you know, it’s. It’s like, it’s that area that also our [00:20:00] consciousness have reacted. You know, it’s where the shit comes out, right? Uhhuh Uhhuh, okay. But in that area also, normally they, you can get also accumulated not only biographical tensions, but also. Things such as generational transgenerational trauma and other things.

Okay. I’ve had some experiences with some some women in which like ex stimulation of the anus or anal an would release transgenerational trauma from her female ancestry who are raped. You know, so all the good, what I’m saying here is that even though. I can see the healing potential there.

This should be done in a super, I’m not sure that they were not doing in this careful container. It sounds like they were doing a careful container, but it’s important that there is like some some really like therapeutic caring around that because it can awaken in women and men, certain traumatic experiences that they were not even aware of because they were not even your own, you know, they were from your aunts.

You know, like [00:21:00] that’s where all that happens, you know? So yeah. Yeah. Maybe I’ll stop here. So it could be very healing, but they should be very well curated, you know, and also even interviews with people before you know about trauma and know, I don’t know if they do that because it can really open a kind of worms.

Yes, I hear you. I mean, I want to comment on that, but before I want to ask you, when you talk about, you know, trans transgender, you know, like generational trauma, we’re going into field of transpersonal. This is something which is still a bit esoteric, right? I mean, there’s been no peer review people paper on.

On, on, on generational trauma. This is more of a shamanic transpersonal growing body of work, but it, it’s not yet integrated in, in, in western. Academia, right? I, I wouldn’t say that I think it was like that for decades, but I [00:22:00] would say in the last one and two decades, there is a lot of like more kind of clinical psychology, scientific psychology, like even fields and urinals and journals and conferences on transgenerational trauma you know, with all the.

Evidence for you know ancestors that were in slavery, racist, you know you know, Gabor Mate has done work on that, that, you know, I know you know Gabor mate, Thomas Hubbell as well, you know, but I think there is, I, I’m not, I’m not really like an expert in this topic. I haven’t rebuked the papers, but I know there is some very good research on that.

You know, and of course there is a lot of like clinical cases and anecdotal evidence. You know, like in the case of that person that I mentioned before it was clear like for her to be stimulated in the anus with awaken memories. She was like from Chile and her ancestry was Mauche. And wow.

She remember her memories of her grandmother, of all the [00:23:00] elders of her family that were women that were very. Very bitter, very angry, very very like, full of like, you know, like hatred and and it was because there had been kind of like mistreated and violated and raped by men for many, many years, you know?

So she felt she could connect with all that, and s almost was, went through some kind of psychotic breaks with those experiences, you know, because she was like, that rage from all those women of her family that was like. Coming through against men, you know, and I see that was stimulated through an anal anal intercourse.

Oh, wow. But so that’s, that’s something that traveled through the genes is the genomics. That’s something that I would say that contemporary science is still probably researching. Is it something that travels through the genes, something that travels energetically? I believe also when doing hate energetic, you know, from our parents when, say energetic tendencies that we inherit.

I see, I see. You know, the language, what we [00:24:00] call in the kind of more. I don’t know, like more like a contemporary transpersonal energy, psychology energy and how that is gonna interface with scientific research on genetic transmission. That’s something still that needs to be like put together, but I’m pretty convinced that the science of the future will, will put it together, you know?

Yeah, yeah. This is fascinating. But, so, so, so, to answer your question, they were. I did fill up, you know, extensive questionnaire. They had my file from 13 years ago, and to their credit, there was one person from I. I want to say Ukraine, I’m not entirely sure that in the very, very first exercise was showing symptoms of excessive activation in a way.

And, and it was asked to leave. They thought that it was, you know, a little bit I don’t want to use the wrong word, but you know, at, at least to be re-traumatized or something. Exactly. That’s the [00:25:00] danger. That’s the danger. But, but so what what, what I’m also confused about, and I wanted to, to ask your, you know, your advice is, you know, it seems to me, and, and, and again, I might be wrong, but, so the founder of this school, he, his student, his teachers were David Data and Aida Samra.

Woo. And so, so from he then, you know, one of the night he came on video for a 75 minutes monologue where he talked a little bit about, you know, this idea of, of, of crazy wisdom or, or rather, you know, the facilitator then come, you know, because there was a little bit of reaction the way, the way he treated the staff.

A little bit maybe, you know, I wouldn’t say, you know, maybe humiliating them and, and talking about that, you know, the, the, the [00:26:00] facilitator would explain to us that in this tradition, this idea of, you know, confronting the ego is that our conditioning and our resistance, which maybe me and you would call.

You know, pain bodies, shadows, you know, traumatic residue, some, some, some psychological resistance. I feel that if I understand correctly, in this crazy wisdom tradition, those pain body, this, this, those resistance were, I pretty much identify with the ego and the way to deal. You know, for example, in the case of the sexual conditioning, the fact that people were uncomfortable with some exercise in this tradition.

It’s more, more like, you know, it’s like, okay, you’re uncomfortable is your, your ego is resisting. We, you have to force yourself to confront the ego and to, to basically deconstruct the ego to be free from this, [00:27:00] from this. From this ego conditioning, but how do you, what do you feel? I mean, first question is, did I explain this crazy wisdom properly?

First question and second question, what do you think about this? You know, like, remember, I remember in one of Sam Harry’s book he was talking about er, that. You know, there was, it was obliging people to sleep together. Mm-hmm. And, and, and, and. Okay. What do you think about that? Well there is a lot to say here, but I’ll try to be as succinct as possible.

Like well, first of all, I just want to say to straight away that, I have a low or very zero tolerance for public humiliations by people in power. I’ve seen it like in the red path, in and, and in shamanism and I’ve seen in like certain traditions, I’ve seen certain gurus in California, zero tolerance.

I think that’s unacceptable. I don’t give a shit about if they are thinking that they are kind of like working on student seas. You know, public humiliations are just what is their, what is their justification? [00:28:00] Well, I think the justification is that well, I think there’s a mix of things here. Their rationale probably would be that they’re confronting the students’ egos and they need like a kick in the ass to awake, you know?

Mm-hmm. Okay. But I think that gets very, very easily mixed up with their own tendencies to be in power, in authority, and show that power over. Okay. And I’ve seen that a lot. And it’s kind of like very sad and like yeah, it’s not something I want to see more in my life. But I would say in the sense of wi wisdom, crazy wisdom traditions.

So a lot of confusion because I think there is like big differences between like someone like je, you know, or Trump or like something, someone like a dam. You know, like you know, there is like two in a ways like when people get enlightened. Okay. Awaken, or they believe they’re awakened and enlightened, you know, they can go into both, both these like two different types of enlightened teachers that they claim that they have like a transcended, like a, [00:29:00] a human conventional morality.

Okay. And from that perspective, they can act in ways that are shocking for all of us who are still in a conventional, ethical place, okay? Mm-hmm. But the, the big difference is the difference between what is called the a moral trickster, like Aida. Okay? Moral trickster, like the mystic saint. Okay. They both have transcendent conventional morality, but the mystic Saint uses like that kind of understanding always at the service of the spiritual wellbeing and transformation of the students.

The imal trickster, they may believe that he’s doing the same, but ultimately also like is more ego driven. There is normally like a a mix of hospital awakening with narcissistic tendencies in his personality inflation, or in the worst cases, psychopath, psychopath, psychopathic personalities. I mean, Aida was like a pragmatic case, you know, he [00:30:00] was clearly someone awakening his consciousness.

You know, I had some history with him. I’ll not go into it now, but spiritual seduction in different ways. Quite crazy for a year or so. But you know, in the so-called garbage and the Godde period in which he was more experimental, he did tremendously har harm. Many people, you know, he would have sex with disciplines wi.

To break their conditionings, their attachments. You know, he broke up many marriages. He had people had sex with women like putting like cigarettes on their back killing cigarettes on her back. And it was, or or scenarios with alcohol and drugs. I mean, it was like really like over the top, you know.

Oh wow. So that was like a period, and some of his disciplines still defend him, but it’s clear that he hurt many people. I mean, like the most, I mean, the, in the, in the most extreme of crazy wisdom shit, psychopathic, spiritual enlightment. You have like [00:31:00] someone like Charles Manson, right? Charles Manson, who led people into a collective suicidal, you know, like and then, you know, he had like this very monistic.

Understanding of the wall. Hindu understanding of the wall is like, it’s like we’re all one, you know? And then he would say like, if we’re all one what’s evil? You know, there is no meaning to evil, you know, because we’re all one where God is everything. You know, it’s a, it’s a miss. It’s a distortion of that doctrine, you know, like that kind of monistic ideal.

It is like, it has been interpreted two different ways. And the one is like, well, if all is one, there is no other. So you can do whatever. You know, there is no moral principles, you know, but the other understanding that I think is more ethically correct is that well, or one meaning that what I do to others, I do it to myself.

So that connects with Jesus Christ. You know, like love, love or the mandate, the commandments, like love your neighbor as you love to yourself, and that’s a [00:32:00] foundation for ethical practice, you know? The last thing I will mention here that is also, this is connected to, to how one under, how one understands ultimate reality.

Ultimate principle, if one, understand it in a moral way, like God is good the. That’s a foundation for ethical principles, but all the understandings of ultimate reality are very immoral. The moksha of Hindus is beyond good and evil, you know, so there is the understandings, and of course the goat of Christianity was very immoral as well.

I mean, the of the Old Testament was jealous, was competitive, was mb was a murderer, you know Carlos wrote that wonderful book, the job Making the Case, how the. Jbe, the goat of Christianity became moral through human history. You know, from Old Testament to the New Testament, like was gaining morality and ethics at the beginning was like a complete jealous [00:33:00] murderer or mass murderer, you know, he would kill entire cities because they were not believing in his commandments or in his things, you know?

So there is a lot about how one understands ultimate reality and how one understands then the ethics of enlightenment. Wow. Amazing. It’s, it’s it’s it’s, I understand, I understand you’re saying, you know, to evaluate this practice, you have to decide what kind of lens you see the ultimate reality, especially regarding ethics and moral.

But one thing that you taught me is about this idea of, you know. Spiritual pragmatism, which is, you know, which is basically a little bit the opposite of this prism of moral. And it’s, it’s, it’s more like an approach of, okay, how can this can improve my life and the people I love life, right? But so to be fair to the school and other school, this kind [00:34:00] of sexual expression, definitely.

Help with shedding guilt and shame, this opening of sexual desire. You know, there was one exercise where you had to share your darkest fantasy and even put on a s show, I felt was very cathartic and very and useful. Mm-hmm. And, and, you know, mann was saying, you know, people don’t masturbate on monogamous porn.

It’s true, it’s true that we ha it’s true that we have all this fantasy, you know, of, of the group sex, of, of, of, of even, you know, rape and, and, and pain and pleasure and it. It seems that that also is in our genes. All these mm-hmm. Perverse, all these perverse fantasies. We all have it. And, and it’s true. You know, like our common friend Amanda Fielding, she says that.[00:35:00]

The origin of all evil in this planet might be sexual repression. And, and, and, and she might not be so far from the truth. And one of these beautiful participant of the, of the retreat was a, a, a psychiatric from Germany that lived in Lausanne and. And he said, yes, the origin of evil is sexual, sexual trauma.

Mm-hmm. And he says that our culture, so he, he was, he find this kind of, of container, you know, new tantra container very useful because they would allow a safe container for sexual deconditioning experimentation and you can do the things you’ve been fantasizing. And, and, and that’s. I feel very liberating.

Do you see the positive in that? Absolutely. Absolutely. Like I weigh myself through you know, a lot of work on sexuality. Like many Maria, I go in the context of school called holistic sexuality. I. [00:36:00] And the workshops that you have taken with me, some of the practice you have done emerged from that work.

And what I offer here is kind of like the peak of the iceberg. There was much more sexual experimentation as well. And practice is similar to the ones you are describing, like self-disclosure in a group, in a safe container about sexual fantasies, loud around sexual, what we, what is taboo, you know, what we would have judgments about or shame about.

Thinking is extremely liberating, extremely liberating, and and is all always important to really be help or guided to understand the, the nobility, the logic behind it than one’s own kind of more dark sexual thoughts. This. Always something meaningful there, even though it can get distorted or even though it shouldn’t, something that you should be acting out in everyday life.

You know, take for example, pedophile, right? That’s one of the greatest, worst perversions that everybody in the planet would condemn. Invariably that’s something wrong, having [00:37:00] sex with children minors, right? But in the context of that work, like, with Ramon Alvar and Marina Romero, they accompany, for example, some priest, you know, priest, that they came to us saying, you know, I’m having these tendencies.

I don’t want to act them out. But they are, they’re, you know, they start becoming a compulsion in me. You know? So what happened here, like Ramon was discerning enough to see, like, listen, I told him like, listen there is a logic. There’s a logic in that tendency in the sense that you are, you are having all your life representing your sexual energy.

You’re having a salivate priest in the c in the Christian Catholic school, you know? And therefore that energy is stagnated within yourself and you feel drawn. To a child because it’s like a referent of innocent primordial pristine sexual energy, pure, and that’s what you need to connect with, but not out in the world, but within yourself.

Wow. And then we, we [00:38:00] held into connect with that energy within himself, you know? Through all the layers of stagnated repression, and then he lost the compulsion to act that out in the world. You know? So behind any sexual compulsion, behind any sexual dark fantasy, there is some meaningfulness, and once you crack the code, so to speak, you can incorporate in your life.

In a way that is ethical as well, and be and enrich your sexual life and leverage yourself from a lot of guilt and shame. So, absolutely that I see tremendous value in those, in those schools. I was looking from a quotation about Allistic thing let me just find it because it’s really very important.

It’s from, you know, Thomas Moore. Thomas Moore is like one of the most celebrated, like writers of spirituality. He was like a monk and he’s a Jungian therapist. And he wrote the following about allistic fantasies. He says he’s like a psychologist, a counselor. He says, [00:39:00] the most common story I’ve heard from people in psychotherapy dealt with a happy marriage in which one or both partners felt compelled to engage in extramarital affair.

The parties involved couldn’t understand the reason for the overwhelming allure of another colonel liaison. They assume something must be wrong in their marriage or in their own past. They never consider, and here comes the cuts. They never consider that there might be something, some deep need for orgy for sex without the weight of moralism or for enough and varied sex to upset the boless passionless life that modern work and family’s values insist upon.

This, this idea of losing yourself in pleasure. The Ian. The Ian is very important. The just Ian experience of like full, losing your super ego, the judgment evaluations, and have a full experience of that sexual energy in a way that parallel probably the [00:40:00] sexual experience of animals and also our ancestors, you know?

We, these Victorian morality values and religious values that have been so internalized in, there’s something tremendously liberating there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like the Greek and the Roman was doing. Right? Exactly. Of course. Ideally, of course, in a context of safety and security with you are not hurting yourself of others.

That’s the key thing. So that’s why I think these schools are very valuable, is they kind of create this context of safety, security, and healing to experience those dimensions of our sexuality and our psyche in a way that is constructive without people getting lost into something that. Could end hearting people, for example, or hurting in yourself.

Yeah. This is so interesting. But, so, you know, I promise 45 minutes, so we have another five minutes. Okay. Let, let me ask you, let me ask you this. I, what’s your opinion on, you [00:41:00] know, one of the reason I was drawn to this more hands-on practical workshop. You know, I must admit publicly on, on record that, you know, after 18 years of monogamous relationship, you know, my mind starts spinning sometimes, right?

And and, and, and, and, and that, and I have, and like anybody else, I have fantasies. And I was just curious to test the fantasies. You know, like, is this. It just, is it so appealing because it’s a fantasy or will it still be so appealing? You know, like the multiple woman and, and, and what I realized, I mean, I, I, I, I knew it a little bit, but you know, I.

I remember my, my, my life in my twenties and thirties before marriage. I had a very animalistic approach with sexuality. You know, the, the, the body to body, you know, very, I didn’t even have to have any [00:42:00] connection, intellectual or energetic or cultural or any kind. It was just a purely animalistic body to body interaction that was very pleasurable.

And I realized, you know, maybe after this 15 years of exploration. Although our ayahuasca and and spiritual practice, I feel that I’m, I’m, I’m, it’s less appealing. I’m not drawn to this more animalistic connection. I, I don’t resonate with the body to body anymore. And, and I, you know, I was here the other day sharing with a friend who also has similar exploration and, and, and, and my wife was pleased.

You know, my wife was pleased that. I was a little bit, I’m losing my animalistic attraction. But then my friend was like, but that’s, that’s a judgment. I mean, why would, what about if he hasn’t lose the animalistic attraction, would that be a problem? And, you know, what’s your [00:43:00] take on long-term marriage?

I. Fidelity, animalistic verse, non minimalistic. What, what, what, what, what, what, what’s your take on all that? Okay. Well first, first, lemme talk about sexual fantasies and sexual fanta also very connected with compulsions. That addictions, you know, especially in, in our contemporary time, which there is this pornification of society Yes.

Of people are looking at porn, you know, and they get. You know, I’ve worked with many people, kind of helping them out of addictions to porn, you know, and very often I do recommend to bring them, unless of course there is practice that are degrading or like heartening to other people and you work differently to bring them to reality.

So but in a conscious way. To have this fantasy stop masturbating with porn. Try to you can talk with a sex worker, a professional, explain your goals. Someone who has like some kind of psychological wisdom or some, and there’s many of those today, you know, even a [00:44:00] sacred prostitute, for example, a healer, you know, sexual healer, you know, explain the enrika.

Yeah. Andika, you know, work with a therapist that accompany you in the process, who’s gonna prepare you to the practice? Almost a second magic act. Okay? That speaks to the, and then you go there and you look very consciously enact the fantasy with all the things. Maybe one, take one or two of these sessions just.

Get to the, to the heat or the bottom of the thing, you know, and then you do some work at integrating that fantasy and enviably, the compulsion addiction disappears. I’ve experienced that myself. Mm-hmm. I started doing that myself. Many, I got into an examples, you know, but I worked at some dominatrix in, in California many years ago because I had certain compulsions I wanted to get rid from them.

And I got liberated from those compulsions accord, you know, creating those contracts, the matic acts, you know, but in a very C way. Amazing. So that’s one amazing for our, sorry, Jorge, can you explain briefly [00:45:00] psychosomatic magic. Sa Yes. Saima. That is a roski term. No. Yes, yes. Well, sag yeah, comes from Alejandro Roski, although he’s, you know, he uses in different ways.

You know, it’s kind of like the premise is that the, the unconscious, you know. Response much more effectively to ritual action than to words. You can go with a verbal therapy for months without a problem, but if you do certain rituals, you know, that’s gonna, that’s gonna really hit the unconscious much more effectively like that all blah, blah, blah for, you know, like years of psychoanalysis, you know, and there is something to it.

I don’t think Yoki takes it sometimes a bit too far because it’s very Freudian. He’s very Freudian in his framework. More Freudian than Freud, I would say. Although I admire his work, you know, but kind of, I, I, I applied kind of like those, the, the, the logic of those matic acts, like ritual acts, you know, that I also [00:46:00] recommend to some of my clients in different ways, you know, so that’s kind of like psycho my, like a ritual action that you do very consciously, very mindfully, and then like your late later you integrate your work.

Thank you. Thank you. So I’ll let you finish. You were saying, okay, let me talk about sexual fantasy, you know, and your advice is to, you know, work them out with a specialist, with, you know, PSYCHOMAGIC specialist and Tantrica and whatever you need to, to recreate that. And then you were about to comment on this animalistic versus non animalistic.

Monogamy, non monogamy. Yeah. Well, I think I think to be in touch with our primordial instincts, our annual instincts is very important for a vital life. You know, it’s very important to integrate, to integrate that instinctual wisdom with our consciousness and the values of the heart. I would go for integration, you know.

To align them, you know, so that, that that tire that lion will have inside, you know, is not just driven the movie. You know, it’s not, but, but it’s not like but it’s also [00:47:00] kind of like something that is even fostering our spiritual and our kind of like emotional growth, you know, when those centers are integrated.

So in the work that you have done with me, although we’ll have done only very short workshops, you know, as you may remember this out of work about integrating the heart. And the instincts. And the instincts with consciousness. That’s kind of the direction, you know. But today, like what happens is that we live in a very on the one hand we live in a very centric life.

Everybody’s in their heads all the time, screens, computers, you know, and of course the instincts, you know, like pull people, pull people in addictive compulsive ways, you know, because we have ize our life. The more we ize our bodies on our life, the less compulsions we’ll have. And then the, that’s one area.

The other area, of course, I mentioned so forth, the ification of society. People are getting they, they, they get. Getting contact with more a diversity of sexual [00:48:00] desires. You know, some of them that they feel they cannot do with their punch or their wives because of sexual incompatibilities or other things.

And then some, some couples, you know, like the half agreements, well, maybe you can explore. Sexual desire. Maybe it’s like a bisexual or more sexual desire. You can explore that with a professional or in this setting, you know, and these things are good because otherwise the person will be repressing all this.

And there are any kind of sexual repression is kind of like a, a clock. Clock bump in relationships, you know, it’s gonna explode later in an affair, in a clandestine affair, in a, in cheating in lying, you know in some cases, you know. But of course, as you know, many, many, many more and more couples today, they have like agreements, you know, like that the agree, like sometimes to open the relationship selectively, you know?

For a period of time, or one of them, or two of them, you know, that’s another another whole conversation. You know, it’s very delicate. It’s not for [00:49:00] everybody. There needs to be a lot of trust and normally what I recommend when people want to open the relationship is to strengthen first their sexual bond.

Sexual and there protocols and exercises for that because when people open the relationship from a, an in their sexual connection it’s likely, it is more likely that things will go sideways more easily. But when people open their relationship from a place or greater sexual connection, then it’s it’s more easy to navigate.

This is so important. You know this idea that if you want to open up because you know from a place of aridity of your sexual sexuality, it might be dangerous. It’s the right I. The right place to open up is when you have already a very strong sexual bond. Mm-hmm. And you want to make it stronger. That’s a very good advice.

What, what doesn’t mean that in some couples, for example, that’s one of the things of polyamory you know, [00:50:00] sexuality is not this to be, they will have tri tantra, we’ll have tri will have trip. It’s not fully working. And sometimes the opening, it helps to rekindle. Sexuality because this one or two persons have sexual mm-hmm.

Experiences with other people and they get reawakening their libido in their sexuality. They learn new things about their own sexual capabilities and skills and experience that they can bring to their couples. So that can also can happen, but ideally in general, it’s better to strengthen always the emotional sexual connection before the opening.

Giancarlo: Amazing. Amazing. Jorge, thank you so much. You helped me, you continue to help me a lot. If, if people wants to, you know, read your work or work with you, where can they find you? And, you know, the book, the workshop, can you share some links?

Jorge: I mean the, the two books I have on the topic, one is Love and Freedom in English, more Academic more scholarly.[00:51:00]The other is Noia in, in Spanish. And I have a website. Jorge n ferre.com and I’m gonna be offering an a workshop in Barcelona on June, 1415 on transpersonal Somatics. The work that you have done with New York Times is offered by Spy TAC. I, it’s like a guest institute in Barcelona, and it’s the first workshop that is gonna be open, because normally when I teach for Barcelona in Barcelona, it’s for cohorts in psychotherapy trainings gonna be an open workshop.

That’s a beautiful possibility. So these are the things at the moment that and very, very quick, very soon well in the next month, someone is creating for me a YouTube channel with consolidating all my videos and interviews a lot of information. So that will be available at some point and people can learn more about some possibilities to, to study or to deep depend into all these topics.[00:52:00]

Giancarlo: Amazing. Thank you for dedicating your life to expand consciousness. Thank you very much, Jorge. I’m sure I’m gonna have you for round four, so Don’t, don’t, don’t think you are done with me.

Jorge: Thank you very much, yacarlo. Love you man.

Giancarlo: Love you, brother.  Take care. All the best. Love you man. Love you, love you, love you.