45: Amánda Efthimiou on Psychedelic Wellness & Integration Practices

Personal Website
INTEGRA Site & Retreat Info
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Ayahuasca
Shipibo
EMDR Therapy
Psychedelic Therapy
Psychotherapy
Ketamine
MAPS
Gabor Maté – Compassionate Enquiry
Bioenergetics
Microdosing
Michael Pollan
David Bohm – Implicate Order
Rupert Sheldrake – Morphic Field
Barbara Marx Hubbard – Evolution
DMT panel with Graham Hancock & Dr Andrew Gallimore
Extended DMT trail
Ali Beiner – Rebel Wisdom
INTEGRA Site & Retreat Info

Giancarlo: [00:00:00] Hello. Welcome to this new episode of the Mango TV podcast. Today I’m very excited to have Amanda Fmu. How do you pronounce it? Mio Mio. Amanda is a psychedelic wellness advocate, integration educator, speaker and writer. She founded Integra to support retreat centers, facilitators and coaches with integration programs that help people find meaning and healing from their experience with altered states.

She bridges traditional wisdom with contemporary [00:01:00] practices through her experience in the nonprofit sector facilitating forest regeneration and biocultural preservation of indigenous medicine in the Amazon basin. She received her M S C in neuroscience and psychology of mental health, where she focused on the integrity effects of planned medicine, such as Sabine with traditional psychotherapy for mental health outcomes.

Amazing. Seems like what the planet need the most today. Almost welcome, Amanda. Thank you. So, yes, as, as our listener know, we tend to focus on personal transformation and we are particularly interested on the cathartic moments that led to the transformation. And then of course, we’re interested in psychedelic as one of the most powerful agents for transformation.

And then, uh, and then we flow. So let’s start from the beginning where, what was your, um, first moment? I imagine with Ultra State that make you think like, whoa, [00:02:00] wait a moment. This might be more here than Meet the Eye. When was that? Or the first of the episode? It’s probably a constellation of episodes.

Amánda: Yeah. So for me, it started about, a first moment was eight years ago. I was living in New York. I had been suffering for a long time from depression, anxiety, bouts of this, and I was a walking pharmacy of sorts. I was taking all kinds of pharmaceutical drugs at the time. That’s what my family that was trying to help me.

That’s what they knew. That’s what we all knew it was to take something, to sort of numb any kind of pain, to make that pain go 

Giancarlo: away. What age were you when you started taking the prescription drugs? 16. 

Amánda: 16. So I was quite young and I didn’t know at the time to do anything else. Uh, meditation practices, yoga, dance as a therapy, all of these things.

They weren’t. I wasn’t aware of them. It wasn’t part of my life, but I started to meet a group of people that were doing things [00:03:00] differently. I was in my early twenties and I met these incredible people. They were living in community and they were entering these altered states. Not just psychedelic, but they were doing ecstatic dancing and trans work and and yoga meditative practices.

And that’s when I came into the plant medicine world. I was really looking for help. I was suffering. And yeah, that was when I was introduced to Ayahuasca, actually. And before then, I hadn’t done any other kind of psychedelic before. So contrary to perhaps many in the story who try recreational L S D and then they want to enter plant medicine.

For me, I was just straight from a state of not knowing what to do. And I felt called to really working in this space. I had visited Peru before and I had heard about Ayahuasca and it was sort of in the back of my mind, but when this community brought me into this, I felt safe enough to try this experience.

And [00:04:00] when, which, 

Giancarlo: which year was that? How old were you? 

Amánda: 23. 

Giancarlo: Mm-hmm. And that was in, uh, upstate New York or something? That was in Vermont. In Vermont, yeah. Yeah. With the shaman of which 

Amánda: lineage? It was a Peruvian lineage. Yeah. Uh, lineage. Yes. So 

Giancarlo: that was, uh, 2000. And just to give a sense of what was happening 

Amánda: 2014, 14.

Giancarlo: Yeah. Yeah. So, okay. And so how was, how was it 

Amánda: So it was, you know, for me, I, I, this was very new. I hadn’t, I didn’t realize what I was getting myself into. I was prepared, but I don’t think anyone can ever really fully be prepared for something like this. And for me, it was a moment of really understanding that I didn’t need to rely on something else to heal [00:05:00] myself.

That I actually truly had it within me, in my body, in my soul. That it was, that I had the, the power, the autonomy to take care of my own healing practice. And it really opened the door for me. It showed me the way, Doesn’t, didn’t cure my depression. I didn’t all of a sudden wake up the next day completely well ready to take on the world, but it allowed me to take that power back to be able to fully step into this process without externalizing, without just trying to numb myself whenever something difficult came up.

So it really began a number of years of self-development that that 

Giancarlo: followed. So how bad was your depressive episode? You couldn’t leave the bed for days or it was just a voice in your head at 

that 

Amánda: point? By, by this time I was already, I was already more in like anxious states. I would say it was, I had like bouts of [00:06:00] depression, then it would be more anxiety.

So I wasn’t in the like a very intense chronic, yeah, chronic depression. It was really at this stage, like more, if I had a panic attack, I would take a Xanax, for example. To, to just not feel anything. So this was really allowing my body to feel everything and look at it with, with love and compassion instead of trying to run away with fear.

Oh, 

Giancarlo: judging Yto says I have a dis disorder. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And so, and, and, and then from then, what was the, your journey? 

Amánda: Yeah. From then, it was interesting. I almost had like a double life of sorts because I think back then I wasn’t ready to share this with the world, with most of my friends, my family.

Um, I went back to the tech world. I was working with some startups, and this moment, this experience was there and I went back into therapy and I continued to do traditional therapy. Uh, but I started to kind of in the underground, like alone, [00:07:00] start to do other practices like meditation and sort of self guiding my integration process.

I didn’t even know what integration was back then. 

Giancarlo: Do you mind talk a little bit of what type of therapy? When you say traditional therapy? It was like talk 

Amánda: therapy. Talk therapy, yeah. And some E M D R. Mm-hmm. So the, the therapist also did E M D R work with me, which helps Remind me, remind me what’s M D R E M D R is?

I don’t know the exact what it, what the letters are, but you’re basically, you sit in front of this, this, um, board that has a light that travels back and forth and you’re watching the, the light, the dotted lights, travel while you’re thinking of specific, um, experiences. So you’re prompted to do a certain thing while that’s happening and it kind of rewires a bit your mm-hmm.

Processes. Mm-hmm. I don’t fully understand what happens, but, uh, it did help. Did help. 

Giancarlo: And so there was a moment where you thought, okay, I’m not [00:08:00] completely healed, but I might be healed enough to then take action or something. Is there was a moment like that I. 

Amánda: Yeah, I had enough. Yeah. I was taking prescription drugs for way too long.

Yeah. I was ready to do something else. 

Giancarlo: You were sedated. But when, when you started the practice with planned medicine, then how did this went into, into your current business? 

Amánda: Mm-hmm. Yes, I know. Long journey from there. Mm-hmm. So I had had this moment with plant medicine and truthfully, I didn’t go back to it for many years after that, not many three years was the next time I did plant medicine again, but, At the time I was, you know, it was in the back of my mind.

I was, I was working in a tech startups and I wasn’t feeling fulfilled. I, I knew that there was something more I needed to do. And this was part of a story. This was my story that I wasn’t sharing with the world. And I felt like there’s something there to pay attention to. And I actually decided to go back to, to [00:09:00] university.

I wanted to understand what the science and the research was. And that’s when I went back to, to King’s College in London to do my Master’s of Science. And I said to myself, okay, I wanna, I wanna understand the neuroscience behind this. Uh, maybe that will, that will help find my. I sort of find my way, and it was when I was completing my degree that I met the founders of a company that was investing in psychedelics.

So they were sort of a fund that was investing in the infrastructure of psychedelic therapy. And that’s when I really got started by having this bird’s eye view of the industry and where the resources going. What does the infrastructure look like for safe, accessible psychedelic therapy in the United States?

Uh, so this is many years later. I said, wow, I found myself right into, into the business element of the, of this, of the industry. And while I was working for this company, I mean, integration for me has always been so [00:10:00] important. I was studying it in, in university. I realized from my own personal experience how, how essential it is to actually creating lasting transformation.

And I said, okay, well no one is looking at this. There seems to be this white space right now. 

Giancarlo: Yeah. This is so important. People don’t realize it, that the old point is to transform the peak experience into a plateau experience that lasts. Exactly. 

Amánda: Yeah. And, and so much attention has been placed in the last couple of years, especially 20 21, 20 22, and we have this kind of investment bubble where a lot of venture capital was being poured into drug development.

People are getting excited. They’re seeing psychedelics as another magic pill that can, you know, solve all problems for all people in all situations. And people don’t realize that to see. Drugs go through clinical trials and to see effectiveness, it takes many, many years. A lot of patients, this is not a cannabis 2.0, are not just gonna, people aren’t just gonna come out of this making a lot of [00:11:00] money really quickly.

And so there was a lot of focus on this side in what I saw and what I experienced. And um, also companies that are trying to support the infrastructure from a tech perspective. Very necessary infrastructure. For example, how you connect people with, um, with, with therapists or retreat centers, uh, what it looks like for health insurance reimbursement.

All of these things are very important, but ultimately, integration, I feel, is what we, we really need to be looking at in the space for it to be meaningful. 

Giancarlo: Absolutely. Absolutely. But, so let’s continue chronologically. Did you, what did you get from your master in neuroscience? Did you understand how this medicine worked?

Amánda: So it’s interesting because perhaps when I got it, we, the number of studies since then have multiplied by tenfold. And so what I learned is that it’s still very new and that we still don’t understand everything. [00:12:00] Um, but what I did see is that there’s still, even in research, the focus on the effects of the medicine in the short term and also, you know, in research, it costs a lot of money and it takes a lot of time to do this work.

And so if we can determine that psilocybin is effective in treating, uh, depression based on one or two sessions, Where is the resources gonna go to actually look at longitudinally, how, how long, you know, what the effects of psychotherapy or, you know, I’m saying psychotherapy because even in the studies themselves that I was looking at, I did basically review of the existing research.

They would just mention psychotherapy or psychological support. There was no detail around that. They didn’t even highlight what kind of therapy, how long it lasts. And the extent of it was perhaps one or 2, 3, 4 [00:13:00] sessions of psychotherapy after the treatment itself, but it wasn’t over the long term. Yeah, yeah.

And so what I learned is that we need to look at this 

Giancarlo: more. Yeah, totally. You know, I think in the, in the practice of psychedelic assisted psychotherapy, the important part is not psychedelic psychotherapy. The psychedelic is just a tool that allowed the therapist to have a better access to the subconscious material.

Right. Okay. So you were even more frustrated after the master neuroscience. And so when, when and how did you decide to throw yourself into the arena in this industry? 

Amánda: I. Yeah, so I was frustrated. I was also working with this investment company, learning a lot, really understanding what’s happening as, as, as the business is evolving, uh, who are the people that are making the key decisions.

It’s very much a medicalized conversation still. Um, You know, right now I was actually, I just came from a conference, the biggest psychedelics [00:14:00] conference to date, and it’s very much focused on the medical. Yeah. I just, I just 

Giancarlo: want to allow, allow me, sorry. Yeah. I just want to give you another anecdote. That was the MAPS conference in the 12,000 people.

Um, I went to one of the first one, definitely the first one when they, when they talk about ayahuasca, I would think it was 2007. And I remember on the paper, on the local paper in Oakland, it was called Make Mercury News. There was just an, I was looking, you know, did the press cover that it was maybe 50 people.

Wow. And, and they say, they say bunch of hippie celebrate preliminary and inconclusive research on benefit of Elli. I feel like getting that report and, wow. Anyhow, so sorry. Sorry to interrupt. 

Amánda: That’s wild. 2007. See how far we’ve come. Yeah. Incredible. It’s incredible. 12,000 people and you know, For whatever reason, and I understand their focus is really on, you know, M D M A for P T S D, nearing the end of their trials.

It’s going to be [00:15:00] legalized for that indication, very much a medicalized conversation. And that’s, that’s necessary and that’s what’s needed maybe for these 12,000 people to even ban themselves together to have a credible, uh, conference around these medicines. Um, but, you know, working in the space, I realized that there’s such a strong underground scene.

There’s, there’s people that are doing these things, not with a, with a, with a clinician or a therapist next to them. That’s more, there’s this whole ceremonial context, the world of ceremony that actually is the way I entered this space. And I see from my experience working with this nonprofit, I go into the Amazon to work with indigenous communities that are stewarding Ayahuasca and Santo Dime.

And, and I see that there’s, there’s this whole world and these. The people that are entering these spaces are the ones that need the most frame for integration, because it’s not going to come a traditional way. It’s not going to be [00:16:00] just, oh, I’m going to see a therapist. I will have a ketamine infusion, and I’m going to have three sessions of psychotherapy afterwards.

And so how can we support the people that are, that don’t know what they don’t even know in this process? People like me who are looking for help and support, or maybe it doesn’t even have to be for those of us who coming from a serious mental health issue, but they’re just curious. They wanna connect, they wanna have a spiritual experience.

All of these need integration in our context. We don’t live in, um, a natural state of where integration is possible. For example, people ask me based on my experience in the, in the Amazon, you know, what do they, what do the indigenous think of integration? And for them, that’s not a concept because their life is.

Is integration. They live in nature. The spiritual leaders that are working in these ceremonial contexts, they’re living next door to the, they’re, they’re [00:17:00] there, they’re present. And so we don’t live in that kind of society. Yeah. And so it’s our responsibility Yeah. To find a way that works for us. 

Giancarlo: Yeah.

Yeah. That’s key question. We don’t live in that kind of society. We live in a society which is ontologically almost the opposite. Mm-hmm. We live on a secular materialistic problem solving non embodied, where out of, you know, um, ultra state episode are considered pathology and gets sedated for that. In, in their world people will have vision and it would consider a medium.

In our culture, you have vision and you get labeled psychotic and sedated. And so that’s why sometimes I feel that I want. To on, to hear more, of course. But sometimes when people talk about integration for, you know, the secular materialistic guy, it’s, [00:18:00] you know, good luck with that. It’s like taking the flinstone from the caveman and you put them one day in Manhattan and they’re there and the skyscraper and everything, and then at the end of the day they say, okay, how was your experience?

Let’s integrate that. So how much you need with the caveman, you don’t even have the language, so, okay. But just to keep a little bit of chron chronology, you were working for, um, startup, looking at the business of a little bit, like when they were like looking for gold in California, in the, in the gold rush, there were like people selling shovel and stuff like that.

Right. So, so I, so now it’s still on the business side. When, when, how did you get into helping others in a more direct way? 

Amánda: So, I mean, even while working on the business side, I was also directing this nonprofit. So there was this element there that’s been a thread for me for some time of really bridging this traditional wisdom with contemporary world.[00:19:00] 

And I had also been slowly doing practices and facilitation of integration without even fully realizing its integration. I’ve been working in hosting women’s circles for many, many years and for me I find that to be a really beautiful way of connecting people consistently to, to a space of sharing and, and being able to hold space for this process, not necessarily for women who are going through psychedelic states, but this concept of circle has always been very powerful for me.

And I started to do other forms of training. I did a integration training at the Mind Foundation in Germany and, and just getting into this space. More thoughtfully over the last two years. And it’s when I, I realized that, okay, this is actually where I can be most of service. This is what brings me that joy, uh, is to be really in support of integration [00:20:00] and not, but not just one-on-one.

I’m actually really interested in the system of integration. What does it look like for guides, for retreat centers to implement a framework of integration that really helps connect people to themselves? There’s community aspect to it. Uh, what does it look like to actually create something that isn’t more effort for the, the provider, right.

And for also the, the journeyer. And so yeah, it was about two years ago and about a year ago is when I really fully, firmly launched Integra. And that’s your company? Yes. 

Giancarlo: Integra. Okay, so let’s dive into it. How does it work? 

Amánda: So Integra is, it’s a place, it’s a, well, it’s on one side, it’s an area of education.

So a lot of what I do, I’m asked to speak around integration, what it actually is, how we can apply that also to a [00:21:00] non substance, substance induced context. Because I think most people, I live in a bubble. We, you know, you and I we’re, we’re in a space where we think everyone is doing these things, but that’s not the case.

People are still at the early stages of curiosity and open opening slowly their minds to the idea of working in these, in 

Giancarlo: these ways. So integration as preparation also 

Amánda: you were saying as preparation. Yeah. Very important. Yeah. Integration as preparation, as understanding what are the questions to ask before even.

Going into a ceremony. Yeah. Um, how do I know that this is right for me right now? Am I ready for it? In the sense of, are you already working with an altered state? Do you have a, a consistent meditation practice? Do you know what it feels like to have this deep connection with the body and to not have the mind really like take over every second of every day?

So these are all really important pieces of what also what [00:22:00] Integra does is to really educate people on the preparation. 

Giancarlo: Okay. So let’s have a crash course here. How long, when you say, okay, you, I imagine that how long is a traditional, how, how, how do you work? Let’s say that I approach you on the website and there is, okay, listen, I heard about this medicine.

I have episode depressive, episode anxiety. I have up too much on my mind, or I have. You know, all the addiction, um, depression, anxiety. I, I was, I want to look at this planned medicine. Can you help me? Hmm. So let’s say a hypothetical case. How, how do you guide me? How do you prepare me? Where do you send me and how do you integrate me?

Amánda: Okay. Well, I will say that Integra is offering this kind of frameworks for providers. So, and for facilitators I see. For facilitators and coaches actually coaching, I’m starting to see as being like a real need. So [00:23:00] people who are not therapists, yeah. They already work in the business. Maybe their business coaches.

Life coaches, yeah. Yeah. And they have clients that are looking to enter this. How can they be the ones to best support that? That, um, experience? Yes. And the integration of it. 

Giancarlo: Yes. Okay. So, so let me change who I am. I’m, I’m not, uh, I’m not a person interested in psychedelic. I’m a, I’m a, you know, can go both way.

I’m a licensed psychotherapist, for example, from England, you know, I did my two year master. And, um, I mean, that’s a tricky one, right? Mm-hmm. Okay. So, so scratch that. I’m not a psychotherapist. I’m an underground psychedelic doula. I’ve been doing that. I’m in California. I’m, I’m, I’ve been doing that since the seventies.

I have a lot of experience. I set through thousands of experience, or, or, okay. So, or in between these two. 

Amánda: So basically like I can give you a case. Okay. So there’s, um, a, a woman, I [00:24:00] can save me here. It’s okay. So there’s a woman who’s a microdosing coach, for example. Yeah. So she, um, Doesn’t necessarily provide, or she does, tells me that she does not provide the medicine itself.

She works fully in the legal realm. Uh, she comes from a life coaching business and now she’s, she’s starting to support people, um, with the micro dosing protocol and the most importantly this integration. And so, You know, she’s like kind of coming into it with a little bit of personal experience with medicine.

That is, I do feel very important that people, I, I cannot tell you how many times I’ve seen therapists especially, or like psychiatrists that are doing ketamine infusions who have never tried it themselves. It’s for me, I would say first question is, do you have any experience with an altered state by substance?

Uh, so that would be my first question. Um, so, you know, she, she is, um, working with mushrooms [00:25:00] mostly. She, I don’t believe she’s worked in, in deeper sort of like ayahuasca or peyote or anything like this, but she’s starting to feel this connection with this medicine and wants to support through her coaching practice.

And so how would we, would work is essentially like, it would be an establishment of, firstly, I, I do feel that. When working in this space, there needs to have a very strong intention. One that is not guided really by ego or by the why, needs to be very clear. And also with that, understanding that, with that clear why of why they’re, they’re entering the space that it’s transmitted to the, to the journeyer, right?

So we’ve seen so many times with, with, with shamans, these sort of fake shamans who have done many, many ceremonies and they’re just kind of there in a space of ego of like doing this for themselves. And [00:26:00] it’s important that, that that kind of, that’s not transmitted to the journey or whether subconscious or not.

And so I, I really first wanna get very clear on the intention. So we, we kind of set, um, the, the values and the system by which they’re gonna be working with this medicine is, or with this integration work, is it also. What is this in relation to their full ecosystem of work? Is this their only way of receiving, uh, making a living?

For example? This is another question maybe guides, contemporary guides often have, is this their main source of income? That also shifts the balance a bit of how many clients they might take and for how long and for, you know, knowing the boundaries. Okay, 

Giancarlo: so number one, integrity. 

Amánda: Integrity. Yeah. And that’s also the base of Integra for me.

It’s really integrity. Yeah. Um, and so. Then it’s about understanding where you are in terms of what you can [00:27:00] do and what you cannot do in your particular role. So for example, a coach, it’s interesting you’re trying to find like a good example. Psychotherapy is more complicated. So as a psychotherapist or a clinical psychologist, your capacity is larger to take on, for example, cases of people who have serious mental illnesses, who are suicidal, who have very severe traumas.

A coach, if someone comes to them and shares this information, a coach needs to know whether or not they can do that kind of work. And the answer is most likely no. So it’s also understanding your own abilities and knowing when to refer out and when to do that without, you know, again, back to the intention.

Why are we taking on these clients and not taking on somebody who can actually, can cause it can cause more harm than good. 

Giancarlo: But so how do you help them? You need to, I totally understand. It’s very important. [00:28:00] Um, you know, you are helping, you are helping the, you know, facilitator that want to start working with this medicine.

With clients. You, you need to help them to understand very clearly their, their, their limit, their boundary. But how, how do you do that? Um, in the abstract you need, maybe you need the concrete. Maybe they’re gonna call you saying, listen, I have this person with this profile. Do you think I’m qualified? How do you do that?

Amánda: Well, so this is something we teach my, my co-facilitator and the retreats that we do as a clinical psychologist. So in her, like, she’s the one that actually has a, this sort of set of principles based on her own work. I see. In that field there are, there is like a, in her training, yes, she received, you know, These sort of, these are the limits, and this is, this is the line between psychologists and, and just coach.

Right? Yeah. And so yeah, there’s, there’s specific parameters of, you know, [00:29:00] the obvious being if somebody comes in with a serious mental health indication that is not coaching, that is something where they need serious psychotherapy. Yes. So, yeah. I know it is complicated. Yeah. There are people who have mental health issues that also have a coach and a therapist, and maybe they feel more comfortable working with their coach on this.

Yeah. And their therapist with more traditional things. Yeah. Um, but it’s, yeah, there is, there is a bit of a case by case in that 

Giancarlo: situation. Yeah. Also, the law is, is, is, is evolving as we speak, right? Yes. Like maps is giving training, but in order to qualify for the maps, Psychedelic psychotherapist training.

You need to have already a degree of some sort. A, a, a psychology degree. You have to have a master, 

Amánda: you have to have a license of some sort. Either you’re a physician or you’re a doctor. Yeah. Or you have a psychology clin. Like a, like a licensed to be, um, a psychologist. Yeah. App applied, not just a master’s in psychology, which is a 

Giancarlo: postgraduate degree.

Yes. But for [00:30:00] example, Gabor Compassion in Inquiry is a two year program. I dunno if you’re fam, if you’re familiar with that, that would that kind of, uh, license allow you to, uh, apply for the MAPS program? You dunno. It’s okay. I 

Amánda: don’t know. 

Giancarlo: I don’t know actually. Yeah. Okay. That’s a big topic, right? Because, um, you know, sometimes you take a clinical psychologist that worked in the traditional western psychotherapy, which is, you know, don’t even touch the patient, don’t even go for a coffee.

Spirit is not mentioned. And then they want to do something which is the opposite, which is creating a safe container, the trust with the therapist, physical hug, and then integrating spirit. Mm-hmm. You know, so how sometimes it’s much. So I think sometimes an underground doula that’s done it for 20 years is much better candidate to work with psychotherapy with, with the psychedelic psychotherapy than a secular materialistic western [00:31:00] psychologist.

A hundred percent. But that’s why there’s people like you. Okay. So the bridge. Yes. So, so let’s go back to, to our case. You, you were saying, let’s go back to the woman that need help from you. To, to develop a protocol, 

Amánda: right. So, so we start with integrity, then we go into like boundaries, where are her limits?

Mm-hmm. So once we’ve established that, okay, I know that I’m only gonna work with, you know, healthy, curious individuals who are looking to just go a bit deeper, connect with self, but so 

Giancarlo: healthy to, to start with, 

Amánda: let’s say healthy or relatively. So, I mean, we all have things, but I would say not somebody who’s 

Giancarlo: in danger for his life and life 

Amánda: of other.

For sure. And not taking any medications, for example. So someone who is, you know, a leader in an organization and wants to maybe work with medicine to be a better human to self and to other, and so we go through that. And then there’s really an understanding of where, I mean, [00:32:00] everyone is different, every coaching, every guiding has a different framework.

So it’s about also working with where that person’s gifts and strengths are, and also adding to it. Um, practices that could be useful that, that this person can, can weave into her own framework that she, that she’s already been working with for some time. And a lot of these practices are more embodied in nature.

So this is something we do during our workshops and the retreats, uh, for facilitators and guides and coaches. And that is to take people through an altered state experience without substance, like breath work, for example, and then lead them through an integration practice themselves so that they can feel it and experience it.

That’s not talking therapy. So different forms, like art therapy for example, is a really interesting one. So perhaps teaching some of the, the principles of art therapy or just drawing mandala work. Um, [00:33:00] somatic experience work, um, movement, bioenergetics. So there’s these practices that can be. You know, of course the coach, it depends on their, their environment, right?

If they’re gonna just be doing coaching online, of course they can teach this online. I mean, now ’cause of pandemic, we can kind of do anything, even these kind of somatic experience techniques. Um, but yes, it’s, it’s really offering this sort of open menu of here are the different options for integration that wouldn’t be necessarily the traditional, let’s talk about it.

Uh, journaling prompts, different kind of journaling exercises, writing exercises, um, and then just having, giving them the tools so that they can offer that to the journeyer. Uh, so they feel more empowered to choosing from 

Giancarlo: that. So, so if I understand correctly, you were saying that there’s some sort of like, um, Alter state [00:34:00] experience that can mimic those psychedelic experience.

But, you know, not with psychedelic like breath work or um, um, art therapy, but, so you was, you were talking about this non, this non-ordinary state or alter state as part of the integration. 

Amánda: Yeah. So for example, like breath work or like ecstatic dance. Yeah. Like something where you’re moving your body to a point to your limits, where you’re like, wow.

Yeah. Um, they themselves are integration, but they’re also themselves depending on the dosage. Right. Depending on how much you’re doing. It can also be, I mean, breath work can be an altered state in its own way that needs its own integration. Of course. Yeah. Yeah. But having a. Reaching a limit with it. Yeah.

Can be a tool for integration. Totally. 

Giancarlo: Totally. So, so you’re suggesting that after psychedelic experience, uh, uh, an ecstatic dance, for example, like embodied practice would help integrating this wisdom, this intelligence into your body. Yes. Rather than break it down in your head. Yes. [00:35:00] So that’s very smart, and I agree.

It’s very good idea. But, so how do you do that? Like one day after the experience, you do the dance or two days after, and then that needs to be also guided. How do you, what’s the protocol you’re suggesting? So after 

Amánda: the experience itself, I actually always suggest that people do nothing. 

Giancarlo: Nothing. Yeah.

Sorry. But then I went back in asking you about, um, You know, uh, users rather than facilitator. Ah, 

Amánda: yes. We’re mixing the two. That’s true. Okay. The user would be doing nothing. Yes. Um, yeah. So like a protocol for the, for the fac for the guide or the facilitator? Um, you know, really depends on the relationship.

So like if they’re, if they’re seeing them one week after, two weeks after, I always like to encourage that the facilitator have some kind of plan mm-hmm. So that the person can review right after, so that they know what they’re [00:36:00] doing. Yeah. Um, that plan, including do nothing for a day, if possible. Very, probably the hardest part of all integrations is to do nothing and then the guide can come, you know, can come on a call two, three days after, uh, and really feel it out and sense where the person is.

And if talking about it makes sense because that’s what the person really needs to do. Or maybe it’s not, maybe the person isn’t ready yet, and then it’s to help the facilitator would guide them through maybe a, a practice that they can do on their own, like an ecstatic dance. They can show like a playlist, uh, you know, of music and, and if they choose to do it on their own.

Yeah, it’s integration is complex because it requires the person being there, facilitating, guiding. It would be so nice if everyone had like three weeks after to go on another experience where they can be guided through all of these processes, which is why also talking [00:37:00] therapy or maybe journaling, these kind of activities are more often done because they’re easier to translate and to transmit.

Yeah, yeah. Right. 

Giancarlo: Yeah, no, it’s very difficult, you know, even because ontologically so different, because this medicine open. A different interpretation of reality. Yeah. So what do you, you know, and I keep going back to the, I’m keep, keep on going back to the users, but then, you know, if you translate my question to, what would you advise another, a facilitator, if a user has this concern, we can go this way.

Um, you know, what happened? There is, okay, for, for example, that there is the, a typical, you know, encounter with entities. So user encounter entities and can, can go both way. That can be benevolent entities that make you feel welcome and they make you feel like we care about you. It feels like a muse. You feel like an angel, a guardian [00:38:00] angel.

You feel like you’re not alone. So you come back and you feel. Energized and power reassured even that you may even belong. And then there is the opposite where, where the entity is malevolent and doesn’t make you feel welcome and actually is angry. You’re saying how you dare come and bother me and crushing my real and without permission.

And, and you see zombies everywhere and you know, so either way, these two experience or this, you know, these two outcome are extremely difficult to integrate in your earthy life. So what would you, what would you teach a facilitator to? How, what would you recommend a facilitator to deal with if this person is, is on the state of shock for one of these two outcome?

Amánda: That’s a great question. Very difficult. Very difficult. Because I, like, if I go straight to me, for example, if I encountered entities, I would go to [00:39:00] my shaman and ask for a, like a guidance, guidance and cleaning. And this is like, so beyond the realm of, you know, what we in our western like mindset can even, like, I wouldn’t even know how to approach it myself to integrate that beyond just accepting, accepting that it is with the, with the knowing and the knowledge that this intelligence is here and it’s in my life for a very specific reason.

And to trust in that, how do you, how do you say just trust and, but also is that undermining somebody’s experience by saying that, right? By saying what? Sorry. To just trust. And that, that that’s there for the reason. Because like you said, the malevolent ones can put people in a very dis liberated state and of, of shock for me.

When this stuff kind of comes up, it feels like the body is what needs to be the processor. Ultimately our body knows and this kind of shock [00:40:00] needs to be processed through release. 

Giancarlo: Okay, that’s very interesting. So let’s try to unpack that a little bit more. So how a realization of a different dimension then, you know, we did this distinction between malevolent of benevolent, um, entities, but then if we want to even make it more complicated, there should be another distinction about, okay, are these project of my imagination?

Is this, is this a representation of my subconscious? Or there are independent sentient beings that have agency, that have a life on their own that can interfere with human affairs and maybe help us or sabotage us that can curse us or they can inspire us. So, Let’s going back to what you said about the body, which I think is very important, but I don’t fully grasp it.

Um, try to try to elaborate a little bit more how these energies, which are unusual and [00:41:00] incomprehensible to our Western psyche. How is this information, how this information can absorb by the body may then make more sense? 

Amánda: I would say it’s not necessarily the information is being absorbed by the body, it’s that we need to come back to our body to r realize ourselves on this physical plane to ground, to realize that yes, if there are these entities that are maybe not figments of my, our imagination, they exist, they’re here to acknowledge that, but like come back to us.

I think a lot of times we might get lost in the fact that we’re, at least from my experience, if I see something or experience something, I’m not gonna. I wanna grasp, I wanna go and travel back or try and connect. But the more I connect with me, with my body, with the ground, with the earth, with nature, just like my reality, the more I can feel rooted and comfortable in that awareness of that happening.

So we’re not gonna [00:42:00] change, we can’t change what happened or what we saw, but we can just be more in our own selves to feel like we can move forward. That’s all we have is us. I see. 

Giancarlo: Yeah. Yeah. It’s like, um, if you have, um, if you have a good relationship, if, if you have done the work to integrate mind, body, and spirit, then you can absorb this information without feeling destabilized.

It’s like it’s more you are, you can, you can, you can acknowledge it, but you feel like in a way, strong in your body that. Whatever happened, you know, it’s, you, you know, the presence of other reality should not destabilize your sense of being, because your sense of being is ultimately reinforced. But this integrion with your body.

Amánda: Exactly. And, and, you know, [00:43:00] some people maybe want to go further and deeper and understand and connect with these entities, and that’s a whole other thing. You know, that’s, that’s where I’ve certainly reached my limit of what that kind of integration looks like. But ultimately we need to feel the firmness in us.

Giancarlo: But you see, that’s where it becomes even more complicated because after a while, okay, the microdosing, the medium dosing even, you can have, you know how it is in the new, in the brain. It reduced the default modes network between the prefrontal contact the S and the tars. And you know, Michael Poland call it the egoic armor.

It weakens, it reduced the blood supply, it reduced the egoic armor. And so you’re less attached of your biography to your story. What happened when you were a kid? Who do you think I am? Who, what the, the trauma thing I have, the neurology, I think, you know, it basically allow you to reinvent yourself and all that part is crystal clear and, but for long-term [00:44:00] user, there is a moment where you feel

a cosmic intelligence. It’s, unless you are, I mean there are people that keep on doing ayahuasca just because they feel the peak experience. But for people that, okay, I don’t want to judge it. I just want to say many people after some. A regular psychedelic experience. They have a sense that, okay, this medicine, they’re not just making me feel better, but they give me, it’s like a door to a field that David Bo, the physicist would call implicate order that ruper Shere would call morphogenetic field, um, is like a, is like an intelligence pattern.

Even Martin Luther King was saying that the moral arc of the universe is very, is very big, but it exists. So even not necessarily from the [00:45:00] spiritual world, but something like Dr. King said, there is an arc. Barbara Max Hubbard says that, you know, consciousness is evolution of evolution. I think there is enough literature from non-ordinary, um, experience like remote viewing, telepathy, previous life memory.

And then, you know, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the skeptic scientists would then says there’s no proof. But anyhow, I think that there’s enough evidence to even have a conversation about, there is a cosmic memory bank. There is this CIC records and this medicine can allow you access to it. But so the question is, this will come up with the facilitator.

That’s gonna be a big, how do you deal with this? Um, with how do you, how do you deal with, with, with, with, with, with this kind of topic? How, [00:46:00] okay, let me ask you this, because you already answered me. You said, okay, you, you work on your body and you try to Yeah. 

But 

Amánda: I think for you, bring up something so interesting because like for me, this is, um, I would argue this is not like a, this type of person who’s already reached these kind of realms since having these kind of experiences.

They’re not, sometimes 

Giancarlo: you can get it the first 

Amánda: time. That’s true. Some can’t get it this first time. And many would Or the second or the third. Yes. And they might go through a spiritual emergency, in which case people, you know, there’s like a whole thing. Right. But like, this is like a, I wouldn’t say they should be going through a typical integration.

You know, this is like beyond, right. Asking these people who are having these kind of interfaces to just sit down and journal their experiences so diminutive to really what’s happening. They should go to a theology course. I mean, it’s like, this is where it becomes more in the realm of shamanism and like, you know, this, this is beyond like my personal scope and this is where I would say why we need to have more of a, of a [00:47:00] bridge with shamanic practices and not just medicalize and make clinical ’cause they, they do not have the capacity to deal with this kind of understanding.

Who 

Giancarlo: the Western facilitator. Yes. But then that’s where I think that. It’s only when we’re gonna integrate, because I totally understand what you’re saying. You’re saying, okay, listen, there’s a certain phase, there’s a certain approach with psychedelic, which has more to do with personal development and healing and empowerment, and that’s what we’re doing.

And then there is another, there’s another stage or another phase or another level where we’re talking about different dimensions. But until we are going to have to find an ontology to integrate them, otherwise, it’s always gonna be, because this medicine, they’re not for personal development, they’re for talking with spirit.

That’s how they’ve been used for thousand of years. So now here we are, Western colonizer again, we take your medicine just because we want to be [00:48:00] more productive and then we say, oh, when we see spirit, we’d go back to you. Yeah, yeah. No, 

Amánda: that’s, that’s what’s happening. 

Giancarlo: But so what we’re gonna do about it, okay, do you want to know my theory, please?

My theory is this. Okay. So are you aware about this D M T. Infusion experiment, right? Yes. The Imperial Study, the Imperial College has been doing a study injecting psycho note experience, uh, psychedelic user with 40 minutes of extended stage of D M T. So this idea that you keep the participant in this high state of d mt for 40 minutes instead just for the few minutes when your traditionalist, um, vaporize.

Okay. So we’re doing, I, I I, I, I did the experiment myself like a month ago. We’re doing a documentary and, um, you know, this, one of the sponsor of the study, his main objective is to allow interaction with the entities. He says, this is just the beginning, you know, 40 minutes [00:49:00] you can, with this technology, with the, in intravenous, with the, uh, anesthetic machine, you can keep the psycho note in that state for hours.

I mean, I’m gonna say days. Wow. You can go down, you can, you know, take a, a, a, a skilled psycho note and send them there in the D M T world for 20 hours. God knows what happened already. Now 20 people went, and I’m gonna put in the show note, a YouTube conversation with Gram Hancock and Andrew gmo, who invented this technology with four Psycho Note, and you can hear from them their recollection.

But, so, you know, there’s been, of course a lot of, many anti, many entities has been seen. But then there’s one, uh, psycho Note, Ali Byer from, um, uh, what was the name of his podcast? 

Amánda: Oh, he’s from Rebel Wisdom. He’s a friend of mine. Yes, yes. 

Giancarlo: He says that, you know, he had a very deep personal experience and he’s very vocal online about it, with his relat relationship with his mother and with the feminine.

And he [00:50:00] said, and I totally agree, that, um, parents McKenna created the service to the D M T by giving, by popularized D M T as. A word out there that you go and you see the elves, blah, blah, blah. Whereas the MT also, it’s can be very powerful for your inner landscape. So that’s where I’m coming to my point.

So the direct, you know, so traditionally there is this distinction about you go to different planet or you go inside. So they call it one, they call it one is therapy, one is entity exploration. Now my theory is that only when you, the inner landscape is in sync with the outer field that you can see the entity, you know, that you can, it’s only when you, you are ready to connect with the field and ready means many things.

We don’t want to go into that now, [00:51:00] but I think that the two things are connected. So, You know, it would be nice to have a new generation of facilitator that from the get go can tell people, get ready. Because the more you do this work, the more you address your pain bodies, the more you are centered, the more you are present, the more you respond to life, you don’t react.

The more you live in integrity, the more you, you have authentic relationship with your community. The more you live, the more you, you follow your heart. Guided by this principle from plant medicine, you gonna connect with a larger field. Is it was Eric, what I’m talking I 

Amánda: think it’s beautiful and you know, almo, when you say this, I almost think do, then we need, does that mean integration is done in the sense of like when not that integration ever ends, but maybe that’s the ultimate, like then you can just be.[00:52:00] 

Truly in, in it. 

Giancarlo: But what do you do with those, the other dimensions that you’re connected with? 

Amánda: What, what do we do with the other dimensions that we connect with? I dunno. I, I think it’s, um, that’s a good question. But at that stage, if you’re already reaching this such unity with self that the, your relation to the outer world is so connected and everything is just one that, isn’t that the ultimate?

Yeah. Like you just, now you just let it be and not Yes. You, you, you just move through life 

Giancarlo: with it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That’s a good term that you use once you reach unity with self. Yeah. You want to elaborate that a little bit? 

Amánda: Yeah. Unity itself is no longer separating self from everything else. ’cause we are not just self, we are, we are all, we are the trees, we are everything.

And when we under really feel that and understand that, then there’s no like need to. Yeah. This externalized, this our, what we’re, what’s [00:53:00] happening to us to create stories about what’s happening to us, that’s the fullest of integration, is just to be in it. Um, I don’t know many, I mean, people can reach that state, but 

Giancarlo: unity with self.

Yeah. As a life journey. Is it? Yeah. Hmm. Beautiful. But, so just one last, I just want, we’re getting close to an hour. Um, okay. So my stepdad just died. Hmm. And, um, I mean, I don’t want to, I’m, I’m not gonna scare my audience. They’re used to all this like, eic, but, you know, I dreamt about, I, it was like, I, I, I woke up like at 6:00 AM and I, I had this very v very vivid dream that was almost continuing as I woke up about my father dying, um, spitting blood.

Hmm. And three hours later they called me from Rome and my stepdad died. Two hours before speeding blood. So [00:54:00] how, how crazy is that? Yeah. Goosebump, you know, and so, so that’s another example about a field, right? I mean, there are so many example, but even in nature, right? You look at the flock of birds, like you see thousands of birds flying in sync.

It’s not that every single bird with a little eye is looking right and left, and he is adjusting, right? They connect to an invisible field. And same thing with the school of fish. All with like, uh, ant nest. There is this invisible field, you know, even a bat goes to a cave and, and, and is blind. And, and, and it, it operates by throwing these waves against the wall, right?

So you have these remote viewers Recently, um, I went to a, to a, to a talk of this remote viewer who was. Uh, who with the team found, uh, a lost plane in Colombia in the jungle [00:55:00] with all the people alive? Basically, the government ha it, it’s on the paper. It’s a, it’s, it’s a public story. The government call him, he put together a team of remote viewers or, and, and, and they work in the room with all the maps of the forest or with the plane.

And they start, you know, and they find it. And I was there at the, at the, at the talk and he said, um, yeah, we, some humans are closer to bat and it’s like we send the psychic drone, you know. So this team of 10 people were sending sacking drones, like scouting the forest until bang, they bound the bounce into the cockpit.

Anyhow, um, just what I want to, sorry for this quick diversion. Um, so my stepdad died and once you reach unity of self, And the psychedelic practice can help you. Right. Might be the most powerful tool we have to reach unity of self. Then how do you deal with death? Hmm. [00:56:00] 

Amánda: I mean, I don’t see death as a separate experience from life, actually.

I really don’t. I, I, death is just part of all of it and I feel that if people who achieve that state of unity on their moment of this life that they have in this moment ends when they take their last breath, it’s just another entry to another cycle. It’s like 

Giancarlo: your 50th birthday. Yeah. 

Amánda: You know, it’s just another moment.

Yeah. 

Giancarlo: Because, you know, I was traumatized how. This death was handled by my stepdad family. Really. First, he was rejected, and he was trying to be prolonged as much as possible, and then, you know, the West is not equipped to deal with that. No, 

Amánda: we’re not. We’re really, yeah. We place a lot of emphasis on a loss of the current [00:57:00] life and what that means for us, instead of like, yeah, being prepared for this as just another phase.

Yeah. It’s 

Giancarlo: like a fa, it’s like a defeat. They see it like defeat. Yeah. It’s like, yeah, it’s a loss. It’s like a loss. Yeah. You know, but that’s why I think that people like you that had the intuition early on to create this structure, to integrate this experience, you’ll have the opportunity not just to be a coach and to have people being more center and productive, but yet there’s the power to change the consciousness of the planet.

It’s very powerful stuff, you know? 

Amánda: Mm-hmm. Thank you. Yes. And, and you do bring up a good point around death and grief as being part of a process of integration too. So important. Mm-hmm. Whole other realm. 

Giancarlo: So take some time to talk about a little bit more about what you want. I felt I monopolize a little bit of conversation.

Amánda: No, no. I’m so interested to hear, especially the, this, this [00:58:00] last part in your experience with the study. Mm-hmm. Um, yeah, I have heard about that D M T study. Any last mom, I mean, 

Giancarlo: for people that are listening, how Yeah. Be a big commercial for your Integra, 

Amánda: for people listening Integra. So yeah, if you are a coach or a guide, a facilitator, a retreat center, anything along the lines of actually.

Facilitating the experience with a substance. Um, Integra is here to support. Please reach out. Uh, we’re off. We offer retreats as well. So three days, three day retreats. Uh, next one is in November in Portugal. And that’s really very specific to people who are in service, not necessarily to the Journeyer.

And, um, yeah, me and my co-facilitator, Sasha will be doing that in November. It’ll be on the website. I can send you the link. [00:59:00] And in general, if you are just curious about this world and you’re not necessarily, you know, a facilitator or a psycho not and have had many, many journeys, but you want to understand better why this is meaningful now and why integration is actually.

The key part of this conversation, more so than even the substance itself, and you just wanna have more of an education around it. Um, I also do talks and workshops around this, like what is the meaning of this? And a lot of, yeah, bigger businesses, corporates, they’re interested in and having their employees sort of access this world without actually doing the thing.

Right. So that’s also something that, um, I personally offer in terms of speaking and 

Giancarlo: Nice. Yeah. And where people can 

Amánda: find you, they can find [email protected] or on [email protected] or my personal Instagram. I can share it with you as well. 

Giancarlo: Thank you very much. Thank you. We’ll have, maybe we do part two next year and we’ll see [01:00:00] how things are developing for you.

Yes. Thank you for coming much. Thank you so much.