28: Baba Dez on Temple Arts, Sacred Sexuality and Waking up to Love and Freedom

Website
Facebook
Instagram

ISTA
Sedona Temple
Pure Planet
Daka / Dakini
Nagual
Vegetalismo
Red Path
Dieta
Chris Wiliamson
Louise Perry
#MeToo Movement
Polyamory
Sacred Sexual Healing: The Shaman Method of Sex Magic
Sex Magic
Sex Shamans: True Stories of Sacred Sexuality and Awakening

Giancarlo: [00:00:00] Hello, hi, welcome to this new episode of the Mango TV podcast. Today I’m very excited to have Babadesh Nichols. Babadesh is an international renowned speaker and teacher, DACA, author, singer songwriter, and transformational guide who has been featured on numerous TV and radio shows for his contribution in the healing arts and evolving human consciousness.

He’s a global networker and seeder of loving freedom who teaches the sacred temple art [00:01:00] to share, inspire, and support others in the activation and integration of life force energy. He’s the founder of the International School of Temple Art, ISTA, an annual sexuality and consciousness festivals and conferences around the world.

He was led faculty from ISTA’s inception to 2019. Today, his passion is supporting other educators, therapists, counselors, and guides to deepen their skill, presence, and mastery in the areas of healthy living, relationships, and sexuality. He currently gives talks and promotes the ISTA spiritual sexual shamanic experience.

Welcome, Baba Dez. 

Baba Dez: Thank you. It’s great to be here. 

Giancarlo: How do they call Baba Dez? 

Baba Dez: Dez is short for desert and Baba is an abbreviation of Bob or Robert. I see. So yeah, you can just call me Dez if you like and uh, it’s great to be here Giancarlo. 

Giancarlo: Nice, nice. I’ve been, I watched your [00:02:00] documentary many years ago and I’m fascinated about, um, sacrosexuality.

So, um, you know, our, our, um, listener, the Mango, Mango TV listener that come from mostly the, um, psychedelic science background. That’s how we created our network. And then we did a documentary called Monogamish on consensual non monogamy. And I guess the The combination of the peak experience and spirituality in psychedelics and the conditioning shattering from non monogamy then merged into the curiosity for, for, for sacred sexuality, you know, how, how can we integrate the peak experience and the mystical experience of the psychedelic with the, um, opening of the non monogamy into, into a practice that can expand consciousness.

Um, so, so, yes, let’s, why don’t we, you know, this is, [00:03:00] I would listen a little bit naive about, about this topic, so let’s set some, um, let’s explore a little bit the cultural framework of, of, of, of tantra, of, you know, sexual shamanism. Um, what are your cultural, um, framework, um, and inspiration? 

Baba Dez: Well, it all boils down to me, to, uh, to the human experience and our different states and stages of consciousness.

And so that’s how it relates to, to our expansion experiences through substance or through cathartic experiences or through crisis or trauma or through ecstatic states. These are all things that elevate us or shift our awareness into higher states of consciousness. Different states of consciousness, I’ll say.

I don’t want to say higher or lower, but they’re different states of consciousness and awareness. And so I feel like. The intention around Sacred Sexuality and Tantra [00:04:00] is it’s a path to lead to expanded awareness and consciousness, and I feel like What’s happening on the planet right now is that people are wanting to wake up.

We need to wake up. The planet is in, has challenges. We’re in crisis. A lot of people feel if we don’t do something, it’s going to be the end of the human experience or a big reset to the human experience. So there is a call to, to, to become more integrated. And to be able to touch these peak states of awareness and presence and then integrate them so they’re not just peak states, but they become part of our ordinary living, they become part of our ordinary consciousness, our ordinary reality.

Um, so, so this is evolution. This is change in action. And when we’re talking about these things, they all overlap because the bottom line for humanity is how do we live on this planet together and create an extraordinary life [00:05:00] experience together and really step into our human possibility, our human potential, which of course continues to expand.

Giancarlo: But so I don’t want to give it too many labels, but this. practice you just described off of integration and awareness. This is, um, what is the cultural background of that? It’s, it’s the Dow. It’s the Veda. It’s what is Tantra for you? 

Baba Dez: Many cultures have their, have their arts and sciences, you know? So I refer to the, these, this culture is the temple arts culture that every Culture throughout time has has its priests and priestesses and temples and these temples were used for for bringing people together to for resolving conflicts for improving life for coordinating things for communication.

So it’s the temples were kind of like the foundations of. Of of building a [00:06:00] sophisticated culture, and this was the place where people came together and work things out and supported each other in developing more awareness, presence and consciousness to have health, healthier, happier lives together. So, the, the temple, a lot of the temple cultures were kind of circumvented and dismissed and bypassed and, and, and overpowered between anywhere between 2 and 5000 years ago around the world.

What I’m actively involved in is bringing forward these temple arts, this temple culture, to bring people back together, to bring humanity back together as a unified force of love, um, because the lines of separation have just have just become more and more intense over the thousands of years that we’ve gotten away from the temple cultures.

So the temple cultures, in my opinion, are the answer of bringing back a very healthy, integrated temple culture to humanity. 

Giancarlo: Yeah, this is [00:07:00] fascinating. But so in which geographical area would you think you were more inspired? You know, this temple that were going on in Egypt, in Latin America, 

Baba Dez: Yes. I mean, for me, the, the, well, I guess when I was very young, the temple art started for me in the culture I was brought up in.

So, of course, what I was, what I was aware of at the time, what was, what was happening in Southern California, that’s where I grew up. And so, for me, it was Native American. For me, it was, uh, uh, because I went to a Roman Catholic parish and I was raised a Catholic. It was, it had to do with, uh. And it also had to do with, um, a lot of what was carried over from the Celtic mysteries from, uh, from an Irish Catholic parish.

It wasn’t just the Catholicism, but the Celtic mysteries that were actually adopted and adapted by Catholicism. So I, I started to become aware of those things too. And of course, as I got older and started reading more in sacred sexuality, [00:08:00] and moved to Hawaii, it became, you know, Huna, and of course the Egyptian mysteries, and the Tantric mysteries, and the Vedic mysteries, and, you know, mysteries from Africa, mysteries from all over the world.

So for me it became, I realized that I didn’t really relate to any particular path other than the path of love and the path of the temple arts that are here to unite, uh, humanity. And I think that’s really the bottom line. I feel like my whole sole purpose and, and, and big movement on this planet in this life is about ending the separation and coming back into, into love as humanity.

Giancarlo: But in particular, the word temple implies some sort of. mystical force and transcend some sort of transcendence is otherwise you could say men have been coming together in public square to discuss things. Sure. 

Baba Dez: Well, then we bring in the [00:09:00] spiritual aspect. So, you know, those of you who are familiar with this, they know that, that, you know, what I’m, what we’re really involved in is spiritual, sexual and shamanic.

So it brings in, in these different schools or disciplines or worlds. And there’s a lot of transformation in all of these three areas, spiritual, sexual, and shamanic. So that those are very powerful areas of focus when it comes to the human experience. 

Giancarlo: Okay. So let’s, let’s jump in on ISTA. I think ISTA is a, is a very important organization.

I would say similar to, I don’t know, TM, like Transcendental Meditation or. or the yoga movement. So I will let you describe it. Also, maybe it would be interesting to hear the genesis, how, and I know it started from the temple in Sedona. So maybe let’s go a little bit on how did the Sedona temple started and how then it morphed into an international [00:10:00] organization that Graduates, 10, 000 people.

Baba Dez: Well, you, you know, you, you mentioned meditation and you mentioned, you know, uh, yoga, yoga, and it’s, it’s really a combination of those things. So, so it’s bringing together all the things that can serve humanity to, uh, to create A better human and collective experience on the planet for all species. So again, we come back, we come back to that place to the temple, our sin as far as goes, and where, where, where, where my path kind of led to this bigger vision of, Total integration came, uh, it came from, well, the studies when I was younger in Hawaii and really bonding with the earth and nature as a really powerful teacher.

And then, of course, all the other influences came in. What is healthy sexuality? What is healthy eating? What is, what are healthy practices to keep the body [00:11:00] vibrant and well? What are healthy communication practices? What are healthy agricultural practices? What are the optimum practices for everything we do in our human experience?

And then that led me into cooking and feeding people because I felt like that was a really important thing to bring people together. So I was a chef for many years and then I opened a health food company in the 90s. Uh, it was mostly green foods and power foods and again, there was a part of me that felt that if people could just have better nutrition, they’d be happier and healthier and make better choices because they’d feel better in their bodies.

So I, I focused on the health food industry and then in 2001, I sold that company, Pure Planet, um, which is still around today making amazing products for humanity, um, uh, yet 2002, I started networking and communicating with other, um, therapists, sexual healers, shamans, other guides that are really working on the [00:12:00] cutting edge with people around, around emotional health and around, um, uh, realizing that like when I moved from the health food industry, all the vitamin C in the world is not going to cure self hatred.

So I really got like, yes, it matters, but it’s not the whole picture. So what is the whole picture? And the whole picture is connected with, with the very foundations of how we actually do relationship and how powerful sexuality is for as a theme for humanity and people coming together. Um, what is this practice?

It’s more than just procreation. It’s more than just entertainment and fun that there is actually a very deep and wide and vast spiritual and, um, shamanic, uh, experience that happens when we, when we, When we experience our sexuality individually and then when we share our sexuality. It, it’s almost like [00:13:00] the sexual experience can reproduce what we experience when we use, uh, uh, plant or chemical substances.

That, you know, people, people would joke about, uh, you know, drugs. Uh, are there drugs? Are you doing drugs? It’s like, the truth is, I am drugs. We are drugs. We’re composed of drugs all the time, like the secretions in our neurology are secreting tremendous, powerful drugs all the time. So how do we regulate these drugs with our own awareness and presence and consciousness?

We’re to the place where we don’t even need to use plant substances or any other chemical substances ingested in our bodies that we can actually at will shift our body chemistry and activate these powerful drugs in our neurology. 

Giancarlo: Fascinating. So when, when did you start your Sedona Temple? Which year was that?

The 

Baba Dez: Sedona Temple started around 2002, um, [00:14:00] and, and formally probably 2002, 2003, um, the gathering started, the training started at the, at the time, but what’s called now the ISTA. Um, spiritual show, uh, sexual shamanic experience was actually called the DACA Dakini training, which is referring to the, the, the, the tantric and Eastern practices of, uh, different tantric yoga and how the DACAs and Dakinis were the priests and priestesses of those tantric temples.

So, uh, the, initially it was a training for those actually doing work, supporting people With these teachings and these technologies and realizing that a lot of people that are, you know, teaching Tantra or doing sex, sex therapy work, they didn’t have, there was, I didn’t, I wasn’t witnessing a really integrated approach where people were really focusing on, here’s your sexual trauma, what’s happening with your emotional body, what’s happening with your physical body, what’s happening with all these different aspects to, [00:15:00] to, so that you can start to you know, Understand who you are as a spiritual, sexual, shamanic being and how to navigate life.

to unravel the pain and suffering that a lot of people are experiences because of all the confusion and the fact that we’re at war with ourselves and each other because of all the division and separation that’s been created by humanity. So that’s what happened at the Sedona temple started there. The trainings happened, um, and I also was traveling east and west coast in the United States and then started to travel internationally, um, to host these conferences and gatherings of sacred sexual healers, mostly, and practitioners and teachers around the world.

So that we could we could start learning from each other and supporting each other with all the the different Techniques and technologies that we have available to us 

Giancarlo: Yeah, this is fascinating. But so Dak and Dakini this is a term that come from Hinduism. It means like demons. [00:16:00] Do you know the etymology of the words?

Baba Dez: Well, it’s like witches, you know, are you a good witch or a bad witch? Are you good a good demon or a bad demon, you know, and there’s different Again, you know, when it comes to mythology, uh, so much of demons and gods and goddesses are all just our own human projection of what’s inside of us. So, um, yeah, that’s where, that’s where that particular.

That term came from and so then, then we changed it to not be so Indian or Hindu or Catantric. We changed it to from Daka Dakini training to spiritual, sexual, shamanic practitioner training. So now we’re teaching practitioners of spirituality, sexuality, and shamanism to support people. And what does it mean to be a sexual guide, a spiritual guide, a shamanic guide?

And what are the ethics and the values of. Holding that kind of space for people. And so really getting into the nuts and bolts of, of how to [00:17:00] serve humanity. And of course, what happens is all the. All the containers that humanity has created, now all of a sudden, okay, let’s create associations, let’s create organizations, let’s create certification.

And you know, when it comes to the shamanic realms and, and the, the, the realms of crazy wisdom, most people don’t wanna be organized there. You know, there, there are a lot of very individual, uh, dynamic, uh, teachers from all different walks. And so. You know, for me it was always creating a loose umbrella, so that’s where the International School of Temple Arts came in, so that it was a concept that was bigger than just something in America, bigger than Sedona, became very clear that this path and these teachings and what we’re doing belongs to the world.

The Temple Arts belongs to the world. And so what is a, what was a name? So that’s where the international schools of temple arts came in. It was, it, it, it, it embraced all of humanity and it was something that everybody could own, um, whatever flavor of the temple [00:18:00] arts they wanted to be a part of, how can we bring this in together and, and create, uh, create a synergistic, um, experience that can really support humanity today.

Giancarlo: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if, if I, if I may, because someone that. is listening could say, okay, great, supporting humanity, helping each other, integrating. The temple is a place where people get together and communicate and transcend and connect with source and the divine, whatever that look like for you, but what sexuality has to do with that.

And so my interpretation is that if you’re serious about growth and personal growth, if you’re serious about identifying. Your psychological note, your insecurity, your shame, your guilt, then sexuality is the perfect magnifying glass. Eros will help. You know, one of your, one of the ISTA facilitator, Rafa Manacorda, I did the ISTA one in, uh, recently.

And he said that, um, basically ISTA really it’s a hunting ground. [00:19:00] And I was like, what do you mean hunting? Basically, you know, the idea is that you want to hunt your enemies. your pain bodies, your demons, you know, what, what Eckhart Tolle called the pain bodies, your childhood trauma that basically get impersonifies behind, inside of you and, and they take part of your personality where it’s not you anymore, it’s your pain bodies acting, talking, discussing.

Yeah, 

Baba Dez: it’s 

Giancarlo: shadow and shadow. And shadows and demons. And I see pain body, demon shadows as like synonymous. And, and so this, uh, Rafa, this ISTA teacher said that, um, in, in a, in a, Eros environment, in a sexuality environment, these pain bodies, they’re more visible in, in, in, in, um, in, I can’t remember which tradition they call it, buffalo.

Baba Dez: It’s something that was created in the, in the, it’s a teaching that came from the Native American. 

Giancarlo: And the, 

Baba Dez: uh, Naguale, the, uh, The sorcerer, it’s more of a shamanic tradition of [00:20:00] hunting shadow and all the things that can undermine our How 

Giancarlo: come that when it comes to sexuality, when it comes in getting naked, when it comes to sharing your deep desire and pleasure, all of a sudden all these demons come up?

Baba Dez: Right. Well, that’s, that’s the core question. And the answer is because our sexuality is so powerful. 

Giancarlo: And repressed in our culture. And 

Baba Dez: repressed. Yes. And now we, we get into the To more of the bigger themes of how culturally and the collective consciousness of humanity has been so bombarded with guilt, shame and fear and how guilt, shame and fear are the, they’re the jail houses that we’ve built to keep ourselves small and we don’t even know that we’re living in those jails.

Uh, at first the, the aspects of guilt, shame and fear were backed up by tyranny and armies and, and, and, and, you know, uh, uh, mass, um, [00:21:00] uh, witch hunts and all kinds of things. And even though today those things aren’t actively happening, They’re still happening emotionally and energetic in our collective consciousness, and the tyranny is in our own minds.

Now we’re our own best oppressors. We keep ourselves small. We keep ourselves suppressed. We keep ourselves in line, and we keep ourselves in jail. And so part of what we’re doing spiritually, sexually, shamanically, is we’re finding freedom through listening authentically to our bodies, hearts and souls.

And stopping the chatter in the mind that keeps us in prison. So, so this is now we’re talking about love, power, and freedom as forces that can dissolve the guilt, shame, and fear that keep us in a limited reality. 

Giancarlo: But what is the role of sexuality in dissolving sex, shame, and fear? 

Baba Dez: Sexuality is the seat of power.

It’s one of the most, it is one of our seats of power, and if we do not have [00:22:00] access to personal power, which every shamanic practitioner knows, shamanism is the dance of energy and power, and if we don’t have access to our power, and we’ve got All kinds of things and guilt, shame and fear around our sexuality.

We’re not going to access our power. We’re not going to be able to create change in our lives or on the planet, which is why so many people are powerless today, because they don’t have full access to their sexuality. And there’s so much guilt, fear and shame around it. And even just uncomfortability, even talking about sexuality for some people.

Giancarlo: But, but you mentioned shamanist, but In the Vegetalismo, in the Amazon, or in Native American, in the Red Path, they don’t really talk about sexuality. They actually say that post ceremony the worst you can do is having an orgasm. They tell you, you know, the dieta, people, the shaman, they, they make this diet for years, and they’re not even allowed to think about sex.

Where did they 

Baba Dez: get it? Where did they get that? 

Giancarlo: I don’t 

know. 

Baba Dez: If you tracked it down, you’d see that it came from, it didn’t come from their [00:23:00] ancient teachings, it came from the infiltration of Of Christianity, the missionaries. But 

Giancarlo: that, but don’t you think that came before, I mean, even, even in perhaps Aria in yoga that’s like 10,000 years old, 

Baba Dez: perhaps.

Perhaps. And perhaps, I mean, uh, the, this, this, this, this area of, of control and manipulation and guilt and shame and fear. You know, it, it, it, it, it was around before Christianity. Yes. But what I’m saying is that that. That organized into Christianity and Christianity became a major, 

Giancarlo: major, 

Baba Dez: major pathway of control, manipulation, guilt, shame, and fear, especially around sexuality.

Giancarlo: Because they, because, you know, the Judeo Christian establishment could control you when, when, when it puts itself between, you know, this you and this I. 

Baba Dez: It’s all about power. It puts yourself between you and God. 

Giancarlo: So we’ve created a society of sexually repressed people that Basically are becoming neurotic and, and, [00:24:00] and unwhole and non integrated.

Yes, 

Baba Dez: exactly, exactly. And, and, and the lines of separation are not just showing up in humanity amongst us, but those lines of separation are alive within us. in us, that we’re actually at war in ourselves, between our masculine and feminine, between our bodies and our hearts and our souls, and, and we’re not integrated in ourselves.

So if we have a war going on inside of us, it’s going to create the war outside. And so how do we come back into integration and peace and communication and resolution and end this struggle and war inside of us and come back into peace? a loving integrated presence that can manifest heaven on earth, which is what I feel we’re really here to do.

Giancarlo: But so let me just, I would like to understand a little bit better because when you say that, you know, this teaches this workshop, this one week, um, uh, retreat, they are [00:25:00] around um, spiritual, sexual, shamanic practices. So the, the sex, the sexual and the spiritual are quite clear. Can you elaborate a little bit in what sense they are shamanic?

Because they invite energies. Yes, 

Baba Dez: I see because what we’re doing is we’re starting and it’s called it’s now called the spiritual sexual shamanic experience and it’s not just for practitioners and what we realize is it’s it’s the foundations of what we need as human beings to have to be healthy, happy, functional human beings on the planet to understand who we are as energy beings that we do have power.

We can cultivate power. We can drain power and to start to have a self awareness. Of our energy body of who we are in that way and and the ways that we build a drain power relationally and the ways that we build and trade and build and drain power through diet and through our own relationship to our emotional bodies [00:26:00] like most people don’t like their minds.

We haven’t been taught how to hold our emotional bodies. We’ve been taught some things around how to nurture and hold our physical bodies. But even there, there’s a lot of judgment and separation and fear around the physical body. And so, you know, so I think the biggest thing is emotional maturity and emotional mastery that those are one of the big things that you would learn in an ISTA week 

and how 

Baba Dez: to navigate that territory as an adult.

Giancarlo: Yes, yes. For me, personally, my takeaway of the week is that, um, we’ve been conditioning in our society. Um, either to repress sexuality or to objectify it as man and woman. And so I, for the first time, I think in my life, understood the difference between a sexual attraction in a [00:27:00] predatory approach point of view, where you have this lust that needs to be translated into ownership, or just An Eros with the butterfly, but without the sexual aspect.

It’s difficult to explain. It was a new, it’s a new concept for me. Sure. So you had 

Baba Dez: an experience that kind of expanded your idea of what, what love is and what sexuality is. And Eros is beyond just the penetrative predatory aspects. Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful. 

Giancarlo: Yeah. And, and. I love it. I don’t know how much we can disclose because the facilitator always ask you not to share too much to keep a little bit the secret and uh, for the, for the newcomers.

But there is without giving too much details is one, one exercise where, you know, there is, you know, men and women are exposed if you want. And, and, and, and I had, I [00:28:00] felt, I felt a mystical experience. I. How were 

Baba Dez: they exposed?

Giancarlo: And I don’t want to disclose too much. Sure. 

Baba Dez: Okay. But, 

Giancarlo: but you know, when, when I was going around and seeing this human being so vulnerable and so open, I mean, I have goosebump now just thinking about it. Sure. And I, there was something I, you know, like I, it was an ayahuasca moment with when you feel spirit comes, when, when you have this like, you know, like, like, like a frequency.

Like an energy. And I, I really felt like, you know, to go to the temple and, and, and just like, you know. I would never, I would never imagine that, that, and, and, and so in, it might means that we have in our DNA, we have, you know, sexuality and spirituality are more intertwined than we think. You know.

Baba Dez: Absolutely. 

Giancarlo: It might be that it’s true that there’s been this 10, 000, [00:29:00] 5, 000 years old fertility ritual. Where this group sexuality was a spiritual practice and we have that in our genes. We 

Baba Dez: do. 

Giancarlo: Yeah. That’s amazing. And 

Baba Dez: it’s beautiful that you’re sharing that because what we’re doing is we’re remembering and in this week by having these powerful experiences together, we’re actually remembering and waking up our link to love, freedom, and power that it is actually in our DNA.

It is in our genes. And we’re clearing away the cobwebs and the fog and the dirt and the dust and we’re unburying a treasure that is basically the key to bring us into this reality of being able to manifest heaven on earth. And so that’s why I’m so excited about the work, and that’s why it’s expanding, it’s exploding.

Like, I was told that now ISTA is, is one of the largest spiritual tantric, uh, transformational schools on the [00:30:00] planet. So it’s like, hooray, you know, because that’s, that’s what we’re wanting to do. We’re wanting to bring people an opportunity to feel deeply in their truth and find their own connection to their hearts and souls and bodies.

and emotions and find out who they are. And that’s what I love because we don’t tell people what to do or how they’re supposed to be. We just say, Hey, feel your truth, bring it forward. We all are so diverse. We all have our gifts to bring. How can we support you to free yourself and bring your gifts forward into your life?

And whatever that looks like, you know, however your sexuality expresses itself, whether you’re celibate, whether you’re monogamous, whether you have many lovers, that’s not important. Like What’s, what’s important is that you embody love and you’re walking a path of integrity that expresses the authenticity of your belly, of your [00:31:00] body, of your heart and who you are to be on the planet.

Giancarlo: Yeah. Yeah. And I want to clarify, you know, Easter now is famous for because of the, of the sexual part. But first of all, You know, there is like, it’s, it’s a one week, there’s like three exercise a day on average. There’s like, so there may be 20 exercise, only two are not even sexual because they don’t really create sexual arouse.

They’re like arrows. And then, yes, there is the temple night that you might, might not participate. You know, you’re not even obliged to go. It’s after dinner and people do what they want. It’s just a safe container. But in the programming, in this 20 exercise, only two. are, has to do with arrows. Yep. All of them, they are really well thought out.

It reminded a little bit of the Hoffman process. There’s all this, uh, exercise around, um, um, uh, embodiment, the sexual, you know, emotional release. And then, [00:32:00] and then, you know, there’s like this, this, um, exercise where you, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s like psychodrama. Basically, you know, you And you pretend to be, you talk to your mother, you take a pillow, you talk to your mother, and then, you know, from the heart, the facilitator are incredibly skillful to allow you to really tap into your true feelings.

And then you switch and then, and then you become your mother and you answer. And there is some sort of channeling. of, of the reason, the reason, uh, it’s difficult to explain, but it’s, it’s like, that’s what it means from the, from the, um, well, that’s why we call it shaman because you channel this energy and they allow you, it’s like the voice of your subconscious.

Baba Dez: Well, and that’s what it is. It’s, it’s, it’s voice dialogue and it’s basically aspecting with everything and everyone, because it’s all inside of us. So once again, like all these voices of mother, father, ex lovers, [00:33:00] whatever they are, teachers from when you were a kid, all these voices and entities live inside of us.

And so it’s creating resolution inside of our own beings and coming back into loving presence so that when we do have the interactions with the outside world, that the conflicts that are within us have been addressed and resolved. And so much of what creates separation and wars on the planet could be healed in this way.

That’s why it’s so important too. to learn these practices and the sexual piece, you know, uh, we, we touched on a little bit earlier, but there’s so much, so much repression and so much obsession that the only way to move beyond all the confusion of our sexuality is to give ourself Some, some basic foundations around consent and communication, but we need to rewire our neurology through different experiences [00:34:00] and we’re not going to have the experiences that we need to have if we never give ourselves permission to have those experiences again, it becomes a mental exercise and change doesn’t happen that way.

We need to have, we need to have experiences that incorporate our physical, emotional, um, mental, uh, soul, every aspect of our being has to be part of the experience. So the more of us that that is present for the experience, the more of us, more parts of us can actually transform and come into integration.

Giancarlo: Yes, absolutely. And also another takeaway for me from the Easter was, you know, the, the language. around, um, you know, the communication of consent and boundary. This is so important in our culture. You know, the, um, apparently, you know, the old Me Too movement has created so much fear now around [00:35:00] interaction between human beings.

And, and then the pornography, you know, like there is this English podcaster, which I really like Chris Williamson, who always covers a topic like, you know, sexuality in society. And he was mentioning a crazy statistics that something like more than 50 percent of young men below 30, uh, has been celibate for more than a year, involuntary celibate.

You know, there’s all this incels, all this, there’s all this group of men that cannot or don’t even try. Basically, this group of men create these groups and they will make the, the pact not even to try to sleep with woman. 

Fear. 

Giancarlo: But so this is crazy. You know, there’s another, another, another lady. I wrote a book called, um, uh, I can’t remember now, uh, Louise Perry.

She wrote, she’s a young, uh, English writer. She says that the sexual revolution really failed everybody because basically [00:36:00] they, um, this, this incredible, uh, Um, this, this incredible opening around sexuality has caused basically the woman to use sexuality even more as a, as a, as an exchange tool with only fans, with all these like, you know, cam chat and, and, and, and, and men now, because supposedly the sexuality is more available.

They don’t try to, you know, to sort the Louise Perry says that, you know, there’s a reason why in the old time you couldn’t sleep with the wife before the marriage, because then you have to sort your life together. Then you go to the father and say, okay, I want to marry your daughter. And the father says, okay, do you have a job?

Do you? And then finally you can marry. And there’s all, 

Baba Dez: there’s all these cultural and social ways that we’ve, that we’ve evolved and we’ve developed and you know, it’s like, you know, you mentioned the me too movement and all these things happening and, and, and the, you know, the sexual revolution of the sixties and what I want to do is [00:37:00] I want to invite us to step back and look at the big picture that the sexual revolution in the history of, you know, it’s just happening.

It’s still happening. It’s not over. It didn’t happen. It’s still going on. And so we’re still learning what this means and how to integrate and, and all these things. And I would say that the Me Too movement has really served a wonderful purpose because it’s bringing our attention to the fear, the healthy fear of when you interact inappropriately, there are consequences.

That it’s not loving to, to have power over others. And to be inconsiderate of their desires and their dreams and their hopes and their fears of wherever they’re out in their evolution. So at the same time, the Me Too movement is going, Hey, wake up. This is no longer acceptable. This misuse of power and the abuse of power.

And at the same time, it’s like, We don’t want to be run by fear. We don’t want to shut down in fear because we don’t know how to navigate this territory. [00:38:00] So what the invitation is, is to become masterful at navigating communication and consent and giving things spaciousness and really getting To, to feel and know and the person that you’re engaging with and what, what is the nature of your engagement?

If it’s just pure animal sex and lust and you both are connected on that and you both agree to that and that’s what you want. That’s beautiful. There’s nothing, you know, that’s fine. But again, there’s consent there. And most people, they have so many things tied up with their, with their sexuality and how they do relationship that it’s.

That it’s such a ball of, of, of, of wax, you know, to, to melt, to unwind of yarn, to unwind and unravel all these facets that, that when we bring loving presence to each other in relationship, it makes all the difference and we’re not so obsessed with having a sexual experience anymore or wanting to have a loving [00:39:00] human experience.

We’re wanting to actually have relationship because we’re not all. Uh, we’re not all disconnected and obsessed and, and, and sexually frustrated because we’re controlling our animals to behave, you know, so, so, so we’re in this journey, we’re in this process and it’s, it’s beautiful. It’s a beautiful unwinding and, uh, and you know, just as, um, just as, you know, the, the, the me too movement can go too far.

Um, it, it’s also served a really important purpose. And, uh, again, what does love want now? Like, that’s always the question. What does love want? What’s going to create healing? What’s going to create resolution? What’s going to create safety and trust? What’s going to end the separation and bring us back together?

As humanity, you know, so there’s all the divisions, there’s race, there’s creed, there’s color, there’s sexuality, there’s, you know, it’s like, how do we end the separation and come back together as integrated human beings? And that, you know, as you know, [00:40:00] from doing the instant thing, we do a lot of work around the masculine and feminine because that’s where so much of the wounding is.

Giancarlo: Yeah. This is fascinating. So another topic that came out from the documentary sex magic, in addition to the sacred sexuality is polyamory. So, what is, what’s the link between sacred sexuality and polyamory? Tell us a little bit about that. 

Baba Dez: Well, sacred sexuality and polyamory, um, it’s, it’s really, uh, polyamory is, is, is having consent and interacting and sharing love and intimacy and sexuality with more than one person.

And, you know, this is a big deal because so many of our fathers and mothers and grandfathers and grandfathers were taught, uh, for hundreds of years that, that ethically, you can only love one person at a time. Um, and, um, And if you’re, you know, if you’re, you know, depending upon your, your enculturation [00:41:00] and what religion you were, there’s all kinds of nuances and rules that govern our sexuality and how we be in relationship.

We were having a conversation earlier about the, uh, a thing in the movie that happened where my dad’s being interviewed and he says, yeah, my, my, my father, my grandfather, his father, was polyamorous and it, and it was, it created a lot of problems in the family. And it wasn’t because my grandfather was polyamorous.

It was because he was a liar and a cheat and a sneak, you know? So it wasn’t, he wasn’t practicing ethical polyamory. He was just sleeping around with a lot of women causing a lot of emotional turmoil in his family and in his neighborhood. So, um, you know, we, we, we need to, we need to understand that. That when you bring love and consciousness to whatever path you’re walking, it’s the difference that makes a difference.

Whether you’re celibate, whether you have one lover, whether you have a thousand lovers, it really makes no difference. What matters is your awareness, your [00:42:00] presence, your love, your care, and, and the depth of connection you have with the people you love in your life. 

Giancarlo: So if you want to, to, to explore them.

The tantra path or the ISTA path or the sacred sexuality path that can be done in a monogamous situation or a non monogamous situation, it doesn’t really matter. 

Baba Dez: Right. And you know, the beautiful thing about the level one is to experience is that it’s a personal journey that you’re doing with other people together.

So this is, it’s really different because we’re not, it’s not a community experience. We’re not, we’re not teaching people how to have more relate, you know, we’re giving them skills and tools. But the emphasis is on what’s, what’s going on for me. In my body, in my heart, in my belly, in my psyche, in my soul, who am I?

What am I doing? What’s my conditioning? What are my fears? What are my, what are, what, what, what guilt, fears and shames me? How do I access my [00:43:00] power and my love and my freedom? It’s a deep personal process. That we witness each other go through and the containers held quite masterfully by the facilitators and so it’s a big personal awakening.

That’s why in the level one container like we, we don’t encourage people to have personal interactions. We, we want to support them to have interactions that can, that can help support them on their journey to unravel and address their inner journey. And we can support each other in that journey, but it’s really a personal journey.

Level two is, is, is, is, is something else that’s the, that takes it in a whole nother direction. But the level one, uh, It’s such an important foundational experience. Most people need to do it two or three times to really integrate. It’s so rich. To really integrate all the things that are shared there. And, and, uh, and bring yourself through, uh, to a deeper love and appreciation of who you are as an [00:44:00] individual.

It, it, it changes life and that’s why it’s exploding because, you know, we don’t do a lot of advertising, but the people, the men and women, they tell their fathers, they tell their mothers, they tell their sons and daughters, they tell their relatives and their friends and people can feel the shift in their, in, in who they are as a human being and people want that shift.

So that’s why it’s working. It’s because. It’s a grassroots thing that really changes lives in a really beautiful, powerful way. And I’m really grateful. Yeah, I’m really grateful that it’s it’s it’s serving humanity and creating that ship. Yeah, I can 

Giancarlo: I can confirm that, you know, the people that Um, I met at level one, I mean, they were like different people one week later.

They’re like lighter and they were glowing. It’s like, like weight was lifted from their shoulder. 

Thanks. 

Giancarlo: But so, so to the level one listeners, would you recommend to do it again rather to do a level two? 

Baba Dez: Absolutely. You know, I, I, I know, like. Just about everyone I spoke to, [00:45:00] like, they’re at the most powerful time, and where they really, like, something really drops, and you can feel like, okay, now I really got it.

And it usually happens on the second or third time. Very few people have done the level one and then repeated it and said, I didn’t get anything more out of it. So, and I think it’s really important because the level two is such a huge step in our, you know, we talked, uh, we mentioned at the beginning of this podcast about the states and stages of consciousness that when you integrate the teachings and you start to walk that talk and practice the teachings of really honoring yourself, And through the level one experience, then what happens is you, you, you, you step into a, a, an awareness and a state of consciousness where then you can actually start to address the bigger purpose of the soul and you can start to address what we’re really here for.

Um, so it’s kind of like a, a, a, a personality journey, the level one and how [00:46:00] to navigate life as a, as a human being. And then level two is like, is really answers, addresses the shamanic questions of what does it mean to die to love? What does it mean to really know that the self and our self image and the personality is something that’s going to pass?

And that, that there’s a bigger part of ourselves that’s connected to something even bigger. And that’s what Level 2 is about. And you need to have a, you need to have a certain awareness and presence of your personality and how to navigate life before you can die to love. So you have to, you have to feel love and integrate love on a very innocent level.

And most of us didn’t get those neurological steps when we were 2, which is when they really land. Most of us didn’t get that kind of training and education when we were young people. And then our lives kind of got built on these foundations that left [00:47:00] us clueless and basically powerless. So once we reclaim our power, we And we can feel our powerness and we can feel our powerfulness and we can feel our sovereignty.

Now we can die to love. Now we have something to lose, which is the big fear. What happens when I die? What happens with death? And in that experience we find out the power of death and what happens with death. And that is more a part of ourselves that that lives on 

Giancarlo: is more a transpersonal. It is a journey.

It is. 

Baba Dez: It’s a very powerful transpersonal journey, and it’s not for everyone. But by the time you integrate the level one, you’ll, you’ll, you’ll feel the call of level two or you’re complete. Like this does not a school where we’re trying to create more stuff and market stuff. And you know, that’s not what we’re about.

We’re really about the transformation of the planet. And we are really happy when people are done with us. You know, it’s like, yeah, went through that, integrated, done, I feel complete. And, and so there is a level one, there is a level two. And [00:48:00] a level three is, is, is one of the last things, that and the practitioner training, if you want to support people one on one on this work.

But, you know, we, we jokingly call level three the experience that, basically, Shits people out the other side that basically, okay, now you’ve, you know, you’ve, you’ve, you’ve, you’ve eaten the banquet and now you’ve come to life and, and then, you know, level two, you, you die to love and level three, you learn how to hold the point of love no matter what.

And when you’ve got that, you’re ready to go live like you’re done with this. There’s no more courses like if you really integrate one, two and three, you’re, you’re basically, uh, if you’ve really integrated one, two and three. You’re, you’re, you’re, you’ve landed, you’ve landed in love, power and freedom.

You’ve, you’ve landed in, in enlightenment, really. 

Giancarlo: So just to go back to the, to the, to the genesis. So after your Sedona temple, you start working internationally, you met like minded people and then you thought about starting the international [00:49:00] temple. And that was with the group of faculty that still, I mean, who designed the program, the curriculum of 1, 2, 3?

Baba Dez: Right. Well, the, the, the program, the curriculum of 1 was the, was his kind of the entry event. And that, and, and until we had enough people that actually did that, there were no more programs. So we, we added the, there’s a, there’s actually a history of ISTA, which I can send you a link to, um, it’s a, it’s a Google doc with, you know, explanations of chronologically what came down, but, you know, uh, ISTA was formally founded in 2007, and I was teaching that with different, different teachers and faculty, and I believe it was in 2009, um, or 10, that Triambica became the, the first ISTA lead other than myself.

And then I started meeting people that had really amazing gifts and talents for communicating and, um, communicating and sharing the temple training. And so what we did was, [00:50:00] uh, I started adding people to faculty. And, uh, and you know, some people were in faculty for a while and then when they went left faculty and they came in the faculty.

But now we have like 14, 15 leads teaching the training all around the world. There’s so, you know, 50 co facilitators and there’s a hundred organizers around the world. Bringing this training to, you know, in many languages and many places around the world. So it had really served that purpose. And I would say that when people are looking to do ISTA, to really look at the different options of where you can do it and who the faculty members are.

And really look at the bio’s and feel who you resonate with. Because every Every ISTA is different. It has its own flavor based on the facilitators, based on the land, the location, that there’s a transmission from the land. So you really want to feel, where do I want to go and do this event and who do I want to do it with?

Um, and, you know, I feel like we’re all human beings. And one of the things that I notice happening in the [00:51:00] ISTA container is that, you know, the people who are faculty and the people that are lead faculty, as we teach this work, we continue to embody it, we continue to deepen it, we continue to learn and grow.

And, um, so it’s really important that we stay humble, that we stay in the place of learning and growing and being students because just because you can communicate the teachings of the training doesn’t necessarily you embody. The teachings of the training and so I feel like that’s, that’s where we’re all at, no matter where we’re at, including myself.

It’s like, how can I move deeper into love and really walk my talk and embody these teachings and really bring, um, bring my gifts and, and we can all bring our gifts of love to the world and, and, and manifest a much better life experience than what we’re living collectively now on the planet. 

Giancarlo: Beautiful, beautiful.

Well said. We’re getting closer to the hour mark. Um, so what’s, what’s, what are you working on these days? Uh, you mentioned you’re writing a book. 

Baba Dez: Yeah, I’m writing a second book. You know, the first book was Sacred Sexual [00:52:00] Healing, The Shaman Method of Sex Magic, which is kind of a foundational book and kind of a textbook for the level one.

Um, and this, this new book is, uh, uh, more on the teachings of level two and three and, and what it means to be a fully integrated being and what it means to actually allow the, the pieces that percolate up when you start dancing with power. When you start calling in love, everything that isn’t will come to the surface to be seen and touched and healed.

And so it’s really increasing our capacity to look inside and notice our own alignment, where we’re out of alignment, where we’re not integrated. And to ferociously stalk ourselves. Now we’re going back to this hunting, um, shamanic hunting analogy of how able are we to actually see our shadows and integrate and, you know, our reality will give us the feedback or the reality of life.

And so our capacity to love [00:53:00] ourselves and share power internally and create synergy and deep love within our own. Beings, when we have that, then we’re able to actually do that externally, that there’ll be less separation. There’ll be less power struggle. There’ll be more of us calling people to melt together in love.

I’d like to say that at a certain point, it’s more important to be loved and to be right. And when you finally get that, That it’s more important to be loved, to be right, then, then you’re, you can start to feel your priorities are in line and your ego starts to dissolve and, uh, to dissolve to a place where it’s in synergy with love.

Like, we don’t want to kill our egos or get rid of our egos. Our personalities and our egos are fascinating. They’re, they’re, you know, they’re, they’re a part of us, you know, and so again, like if there’s any part of ourselves that we want to get rid of or kill, that’s the invitation to bring it home to [00:54:00] love and to integrate it, not kill it because we need to integrate all of humanity, not kill off part of humanity, not, we don’t need to create genocide inside of ourselves or in our tribes or on our planet.

We need to bring our loving awareness and create synergy for us all to come together to manifest heaven on earth. 

Giancarlo: Beautiful. So, so part of your week is dedicated to writing and then you’re traveling for international commitment for conferences. Do you still do some teaching? You don’t need the, I’ve been, 

Baba Dez: I’ve been taken a lot of time off these last years.

You know, it’s, it’s been a very full time and we’re interacting with a lot of people for a long time. And just taking a break and catching a breather. And, you know, I am inspired. I’m inspired to, to continue to share this beautiful, um, these beautiful ISTA trainings that I love and are so much a part of.

My heart and soul. Um, and now I’m feeling rested and I’m, I’m kind of gauging the time of, of where I want to come back and start facilitating some [00:55:00] trainings and sharing this work again. I’m involved in another, uh, perhaps some, uh, some kind of, uh, I’m committed to communicating, uh, and, and what, what are the, what, what, what’s available and what wants to come forward.

So I’m looking at. You know, different people wanting to create some television series or another documentary about this movement and how important it is and who we are as human beings and And, uh, furthering this transformation of humanity on the planet. So, however I can serve that is kind of where I’m at.

And right now I, I realized that I needed a break in my life and you know, there’s great people running ISTA now. The trainings are fantastic. They’re happening all over the place. Sure. We have our inner, Challenges, you know, and our, our, um, our organizational challenges as this organism grows. This is the thing grows.

How do we stay in love and not kind of default into old, you know, corporate or organizational thinking, but really keeping an alive, loving, [00:56:00] transformational, um, organism that continues to evolve and serve humanity. And, uh, how do we survive the, um, The old conditioning of guilt, fear and shame that keeps coming in and wanting to infiltrate this organism and the way that we keep it from being infiltrated is by being ferociously in love with ourselves and each other.

So we’re, we’re, we’re, we’re having that experience and it’s gorgeous. And yeah, I’m enjoying. I’m here. I’m here to play. Um, I’m rested. I’m ready. I have more energy. I’m ready for another round and we’ll see how many rounds there are. Nice. 

Giancarlo: Nice. So what 

Baba Dez: is home these days? Home is on a sailboat. It’s on a beautiful catamaran and we’ve been moving through the Mediterranean this last year.

We’ll be going transatlantic and we’ll be in the Caribbean next year. The idea is to move around the world and, and just, uh, uh, sail in a, in a, using the wind and as, as sustainably as possible and evolve the technology of, uh, Of sailing and, um, and [00:57:00] cleaning up the oceans and all that kind of good stuff and seeing tribe all around the world and, you know, doing these trainings and festivals and conferences to keep inspiring people to come home to themselves 

Giancarlo: and to love.

Amazing. I’m a bit jealous about your life right now, living on a catamaran. 

Baba Dez: Well, here we are co creating it. It’s such a joy to be sitting here in this studio and, you know, And doing something that can really make a difference. So thank you. 

Giancarlo: Thank you. Thank you. Allow me. Allow me. I can’t help it. Last personal question.

So do you have a primary lover? What’s your relationship status these days? I have a 

Baba Dez: primary lover. I have, I have, I have, I consider right now, if I did a snapshot of my life, I have several primary lovers. I see. I have like three primary lovers and probably maybe a dozen other secondary, secondary, but also very meaningful lovers in my life.

And, and that keeps revealing itself and, you know, it’s a beautiful thing. I really love the place where we can, we can start to create our beloveds and our family [00:58:00] and, uh, we can use our choice to create the families and beloveds and the lives that we really want. And, and, and I’m also in the process of inviting my blood family in.

I have some nieces and nephews and cousins and people and brothers and sisters that have done the ISTA journey. So And they really love it. And so there’s alignment there, too. Um, so I’m really grateful for my blood family that’s come into my soul family and that there’s no separation there. It’s, it’s fun and exciting.

I love it. And you’ve done ISTOS, you can come sail on the boat. 

Giancarlo: Nice. Let, let me ask you another final, um, conservative question. So your three primary partner, they don’t want children. Mm hmm. I mean, you never, how? 

Baba Dez: Um, two of them are beyond child age. 

Giancarlo: Okay. 

Baba Dez: And one of them is kind of open to the possibility and she’s in the question.

And you? You know, honestly, in the last eight years, I’ve been feeling the soul. [00:59:00] I’ve been feeling the call of the soul that wants to come through and, and, and so there’s a part of me that’s open to that, but I am also realizing that, you know, it all needs to flow and, and if one of these lovers, uh, if this one lover or a lover comes into my life that, um, where there’s alignment around them hearing that call as well, and that’s what we’re supposed to do, then that could happen.

However, there’s another part of myself that’s very aware that the Planet doesn’t need any more people. Mm-Hmm. . And so, you know, I think adoption is wonderful too. And there’s a lot of other ways. So he’s like, how, once again it comes back to the beginning of our conversation. How do we reconcile and bring into love all these different parts of ourselves that want different things and, and care about different things?

And if we can, if I can create that total integration in my own being, then I can trust my choices going forward. And we can all trust our choices going forward. And. And create a very different reality. 

Giancarlo: Ale, [01:00:00] Inshallah. So for, I want to put in the show notes some useful links. Okay, so first is the Insta, Insta link, which is insta.

life Then you gonna share a Google Doc on the history of Insta. Can I put that publicly? Yeah, I believe so. So we’re going to put that on the show notes. Um, if people wants to be in touch with you, do you have a social media? 

Baba Dez: Yeah, I’m on Facebook, uh, Instagram. I’m on Instagram, BobadezNichols. Uh, um, you can go to Bobadez.

com, which right now links to my profile on the ISTA, on the ISTA faculty page. 

Giancarlo: Where, where people can buy your first book? 

Baba Dez: People can buy it on Amazon. Um, there, I think there’s a couple other outlets as well. 

Giancarlo: Mention, mention the name again. 

Baba Dez: The name of the book is Sacred Sexual Healing. Yeah. The Shaman Method of Sex Magic, and that was written by myself and Kamala Devi.

Giancarlo: Yeah. 

Baba Dez: Who’s also an ISTA faculty. Wonderful book. There’s still, even though the book is over 10 years old, there’s still lots of information [01:01:00] in there that’s so current and really hasn’t, I haven’t seen it shared in any other medium. 

Giancarlo: Amazing. And then you’re gonna put on your website when the second book is ready.

Sure. And then IFC on Amazon, you’ll find Sex Magic. And then I find an anthology of, of Easter facilitator called Sex Shamans. Yes. 

Baba Dez: Beautiful book. 

Giancarlo: That’s a beautiful book. 

Baba Dez: Yeah, that’s a really fun, really fun read. Very fun read. That’s also available on Amazon. Yes. We’ll put, 

Giancarlo: we’ll put the link on the show.

Beautiful. 

Baba Dez: Okay. 

Giancarlo: Thank you so much. Thank you. Thanks for having me. It was great 

Baba Dez: sharing with you. 

Jingle: [01:02:00] Peace.