54: Batuhan Bintas on Psychedelics, AI and Educating the Future Generation

Batuhan Bintas – Website
Batuhan Bintas – Instagram
Cyber Mushroom – Website
Cyber Mushroom – Instagram
Imaginatrix – Website
Imaginatrix – Instagram

Merlin Sheldrake
Fungi:  Web of Life
Merlin Sheldrake – Book
Steve Jobs – Psychedelics & Computer Revolution
Merlin Sheldrake – Wood Wide Web
Ghost in the Shell (1995)
The Matrix (1999)
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (2014)
DMT – Imperial College London
Ralph Metzner
Andrew Gallimore, Graham Hancock – DMTx Panel
Ganesha
Graham Hancock – Consciousness
Nobel Prize – Non-Locality
Carl Jung
VR Headset
Her (2013)
The Witcher (game)

Giancarlo: [00:00:00] Hello, hi, welcome to this new episode of the Mango TV podcast. Today, I’m very excited to have Batuhan Bintas. With a passion to educate the upcoming generations, Batuhan has been a technology enthusiast since his first meeting with computers at age three. He’s an animator and full stack extended reality developer with a deep understanding of artificial intelligence technologies.

Batuhan is the founder and CEO of Imaginatrix Studios. London, [00:01:00] Istanbul based XR studio that design augmented mixed and virtual reality technologies. Company focuses on educating the upcoming generations about the responsible use of technology and inspires them to become the innovator of the future.

Batuhan actively guest lectures, runs workshops at University of Arts London and University of Greenwich. He’s a keynote speaker and has spoken at renowned events such as Boom Festival, Ozora festival, breaking convention, and a culture, also a psychedelic science enthusiast and a cyberdelic. I’m salivating about that.

We live in a time where science fiction is becoming science fact. Batuhan elevate upcoming generations and teach us about the responsible use and innovation of technology. So we write beautiful science fiction where we wish to live in. Welcome Batuhan. 

Batuhan: Thank you for the intro. Thank you very much Giancarlo.

Giancarlo: You, you forgot another [00:02:00] important event where you spoke, which was Regenerate X in Bodrum. 

Batuhan: It says where we, where we, where we met actually, right? 

Giancarlo: Yeah, where we met, where we met. I was immediately drawn to your, um, expertise on what I think are some of the most interesting topic nowadays. Things like.

artificial intelligence and psychedelic and also, you know, community building, you know, your passion for festival. And, um, yeah, we’ve been trying to see each other socially now for several months, but, uh, it didn’t work out. How was, how was Merlin Sheldrake documentary? 

Batuhan: It was very good. It was very good. It was an amazing weekend with Merlin and all our friend group.

So on Saturday, we celebrated, we went to IMAX, we watched Merlin’s new film, Web of Life. It’s a really interesting documentary focuses on the mycelium network in general. And surprisingly doesn’t talk about, doesn’t even mention psychedelic [00:03:00] mushrooms once. It mainly focuses on the effects of mushrooms and their power on, on the environment.

And brings forth, uh, you know, um, it brings a focus on, on the importance of, of mycelium network. And I, I was assuming, I was guessing that like they didn’t want to touch on the psychedelic mushrooms because when you want to mention psychedelic mushrooms, they become the main focus of, you know, of everything.

So it’s actually, I’m actually happy that they didn’t mention it. And I’m sure people in the crowd and people that watched them, you know, the entire movie itself, it was magical without having to mention, you know. circulate mushrooms. The movie has a lot of like microscopic views, microscopic life for life’s of the call of, of my sleep network.

So for that, it was like an incredible, um, how to go journey, visual journey. After the event, um, we were invited back to shadow X house. So we were there with Rupert Sheldrake, Cosmo Sheldrake, Merlin [00:04:00] Sheldrake, and gosh, it was a good party till 8am. 

Giancarlo: Yes, I’m sure. I’m sure. I’m sure. I will, we will put in the show notes, um, a link with the, with the Merlin’s book and uh, maybe the movie, if he’s going to be available or where they’re going to tell where it’s going to be available, but going back to us.

So tell us a little bit about, um, you know, your coming of age, where did you grow up and, and how did you develop this? passion for technology and psychedelics? 

Batuhan: Well, I mean, they always coexisted, you know, since my, the culture I was born in is really has really impact on my, you know, upbringing and my interest in both technology and psychedelics.

So I was born and raised in Turkey and at a really young age, my Sufi grandmother, she raised us with the belief that belief that we are surrounded by different dimensions and each dimension has a, their own intelligences. And she told us about genies, you know, genies in Islam. So [00:05:00] she told me that like, there are ways to communicate with these beings.

There are ways to contact with those dimensions, but one must be very careful once when you’re doing it. 

Giancarlo: Why you have to be careful? Because they can be malevolent. 

Batuhan: Yes, that as well, but also like, not only them being malevolent, but also like, you know, the human ego interfering into, you know, like trying to abuse their power for their own personal gain.

So my grandma always like said that, you know, you need to be spiritually protected and, and also spiritually, you know, you need to know yourself when, if you want to embark on such a journey. So when I first experienced psychedelics at age 18, I was initially expecting to see flying pink elephants, you know, that was like the, the, the vision that, you know, the, the, the TV show me, but instead I found out that, well, I, I was like, I ended up in the dimension that my grandmother told me, because my, my grandma was always telling me that like a curtain, Allah put a curtain in [00:06:00] front of our eyes, so not, so we don’t get, you know, confused.

And she said that ways to open that curtain. I was like, okay, eating mushrooms, definitely a one way to open that curtain. And that’s been my journey. 

Giancarlo: How old were you when you did your mushroom? 

Batuhan: 18, yeah, yeah. 

Giancarlo: You think it was a big dose, do you remember? 

Batuhan: Oh yeah, it was a huge dose. 

Giancarlo: Like five grams? 

Batuhan: Yeah, definitely the five grams, but now under that, you know, we also smoke cannabis on top of it, you know, we, you know, we were just like, it was five of us and then five of us who just met at high school and we were like pretending to be cool people, you know, and then we were like saying that like, Oh yeah, I do psychedelics every day or I do LSD every day and then we all found some mushrooms, ate it and then we found out that it was every single one of our first time doing it.

So then we were like lost in the jungle. Yeah. 

Giancarlo: in Turkey. 

Batuhan: No, this was in a different country. Yeah. And then, and, uh, [00:07:00] we were like lost in a forest and it was beautiful, really, really beautiful life changing experience. And then since then, and then after that experience for one whole year, I didn’t touch anything, even alcohol, because I was just so mesmerized by the experience that like, like I was in all like, I remember for the following three months, I was like, What was that?

You know? 

Giancarlo: Yeah. Yeah. You develop like a sense of reverence that you don’t feel like you want to go back until you’re fully integrated and digested experience. Right. Yeah. 

Batuhan: Definitely. Definitely. Yeah. So my interest with, with technology also came from this similar, you know, around the same time as well. So, um, at age 19, um, I experienced a difficulty, so I lived in Italy for a year and then I lived in Denmark for two years.

But in my second year in Denmark, because Turkey is not part of the European Union, I was, in my [00:08:00] second year visa application, was, uh, refused. And I was, my passport got stamped in the middle of my studies in my second year, and I was deported from Denmark. But, um, luckily my high school, they allowed me, because I’ve done nothing wrong besides being Turkish, they allowed me to continue education over the internet.

So I actually did internet education before it was cool. Like this was 2012, 2013. And I had to spend three months in Turkey and then go back for my exams. And on the, during those three months, I will wake up every morning, connect to the internet and connect to my class. And this literally made me question.

I was like, wow, like my body is not allowed in the, into that country. For three months because of the bureaucracies between countries, but my mind can travel through Internet like I can literally mentally be in the classroom, but not physically so I was like, Well, this is the power [00:09:00] of the Internet. Like that’s literally where my passion comes from.

So right now I am working on a project. I’m running a project with the organization called our solution, and we are hoping to take virtual reality experiences to refugee camps. In the summer together with the United Nations and our aim is to help refugee kids. Get out of the refugee camps with the power of the internet.

Giancarlo: Amazing. 

Batuhan: Yeah, because you know, refugee kids are like stuck in, in the refugee camps and we want to at least give them an opportunity through which they can experience, you know, what’s life like outside of the refugee camps. 

Giancarlo: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. I never thought, I never thought like from that angle, there’s such an empowering approach, right?

Where, you know, government and discriminations and law and regulation can regulate the movement of bodies, but through the internet. you know, nobody can regulate the movement of mind. So you had this transformative experience with [00:10:00] psychedelic. You felt this different dimension that your mother from a Sufi tradition was telling you, then you discover the power of the internet.

And so then these two things together inform your next steps in life, or then, then, then what happened after your degree? 

Batuhan: Well, after my degree, um, I then moved to London. I continued studying here again that summer. I experienced another visa difficulties and then during my but then I passed that and then I started studying art and then animation and then during when I was studying animation, you know, like I mean, the word animation comes from anime, like, you know, breathing life into into things.

And that’s what you do with animations. I studied hand drawn animation. So, you know, like when you, when you spend, like, it’s, it’s a really pain painstaking, you know, process of like having to draw like 24 frames to create one second for 10 seconds animation, you need to draw 240 frames. You need to paint them.

So when I was [00:11:00] going through that, you know, painstaking, you know, um, process. I was always questioning, like, if the characters I was animating knew about me. And then I remember once, like, I was animating after, like, you know, days and nights of animating these two characters. I stopped for a second. I literally looked up.

I was like, what if I’m being animated, you know? Like, like, how can I know that, like, you know, if there is, you know, it’s like, you know, this one big inception. And then doing Universe, I also, like, you know. experimented with psychedelics. I was part of the Imperial College’s, um, um, psychedelic research on the dimethyltryptamine in 2016.

That was a totally life changing experience. And then during my, uh, universe, I wrote my thesis in 2017 about internet becoming a self conscious entity. So I was questioning, you know, um, that, uh, what is to be alive? Like, what makes us conscious beings? What makes us define [00:12:00] that we are alive? And what if internet has already developed some sort of awareness, awareness that we don’t understand?

Because, um, back in 2017, as far as I know, there was 500 billion devices connected to the internet and, and the machine learning. And it’s been seven years since then. I mean, back then we didn’t even have like commercial use case of artificial intelligence. Like right now you have hundreds of different AI apps coming up every day.

And, um, that I found that really fascinating and I was like, I, I was questioning like, are we becoming like some sort of like, you know, one big hide mind. And then I started actually doing like research on the origins of internet as you can tell, you know, like internet really allowed me, you know, bypass the obstacles that life threw at me and because of my nationality, because of my past, but like I started doing intensive research to do, you know, origins of internet and what I found, which is, which [00:13:00] blew my mind was that, um, you know, people who were inspired by psychedelic experience, like Steve jobs, You know, um, they were like, you know, hippies of 1960s who would eat mushrooms or take LSD.

So those hippies were actually the ones that created computer networks and personal computers. They even claim that, you know, Silicon Valley people said that the human closeness that was felt under the influence of psychedelics was one of the main catalysts in creation of internet and personal computers.

And what really fascinates me is that In the nature, what connects the entire, you know, nature is mycelium network, you know, wood wide web, as Merlin Shadwick would put it. So, the wood wide web that connects the entire, you know, ecosystem has produced a fruiting body, which is the mushroom, that inspired humans to create a network to connect [00:14:00] humanity.

And I find this, you know, like deeply fascinating and deeply, you know, like a parallel when people think that, you know, technology is not natural. I always give this example, 

Giancarlo: but, but so maybe let’s, let’s, let’s repeat it because maybe this is not familiar language. So, uh, Rupert’s, he call it wood wide web from the wood where the mycelium grow, right?

Yeah. So he says that. You know, nature gave us the wood wide web through the mycelinium and then with the spore, with the flower of the wood wide web, which are the mushroom. They inspired humans to create the world wide web. 

Batuhan: Yes, precisely. 

Giancarlo: That’s amazing. 

Batuhan: Yeah. I find that really, really fascinating. Also, like, like if you think about this, you know, like mushrooms are world’s oldest living being, they’ve, they have survived so many different cataclysms, like the oldest.

Living being like the oldest mycelium fossils [00:15:00] were found in in the lava. There were like 2. 4 billion years old It was also mentioned in Merlin’s documentary as well. They were found in South Africa So what mushrooms do is also they live off the dead matter Like they break down all the dead matter at some point in our lives.

We also gonna be, our bodies are going to be broken down by mushrooms. And that’s an, you know, natural cycle. And in their 2. 4 billion long journey, mushrooms. Like if it found a way to hack the human body or like the animal body, you know, because when you, when you digest all these, you know, human bodies, you might, you, mushrooms perhaps have been studying the human biology and it found ways to biologically alter the human computer.

Let’s call it the body and allow it to connect to altered states of consciousness. I found that deeply, deeply magical. 

Giancarlo: Fascinating. 

Batuhan: Yeah. I mean, I’m a technologist. I always reverse engineer things and try to understand them. [00:16:00] 

Giancarlo: Super interesting. And, and what you said about my selenium decompose and, and, and basically reach basically the my selenium, you know, create life from death.

This is incredible. You know, like the, the, like the vulture. Okay. So this is fascinating, but just to go back a little bit on the chronology, just to to find some order. So you were animating, creating all this different image and, and, and, you know, your background and your psychedelic experience made you believe that maybe there’s a deeper interaction with reality.

We are not just this detached objectives observer, but we might be part of the whole thing. And then where did you go from there? From your animation day, what happened then? 

Batuhan: After I graduated, I formed my company and then I started, you know, doing freelance work. But then where I see what I’m really good at is like, reminding, [00:17:00] I see myself somewhere in between the tech world and the natural world.

You know, in the, in the technology world, people can easily turn a blind eye on, you know, on nature. Or, you know, or think that like, you know, humans are, you know, over everything, whereas in the, in the, you know, people in the communities that are around nature, there is also a lot of like how they call taboos around technology, you know, like, you know, so I am somewhere in between, you know, I’m the mediator.

So I, I always like, you know, bring this kind of talks, talks to conversation. And then I’m really good at like showing people the other side of the medallion and see, say that like, you know, everything, everything is interconnected. You know, like I don’t, like, for example, calling AI artificial intelligence.

Who are we to say it’s artificial? You know, it is some sort of intelligence. Like what? For example, bees build beehives and for us beehives are [00:18:00] supernatural. I was giving that example I think at the regenerate X. But like, perhaps when bees go back to the beehive, they think that they built the pinnacle of their civilization, like a pyramid of bees, you know, maybe for them, you know, beehive is the pinnacle of their civilization, but yet for us, it’s supernatural.

Giancarlo: You mean for the bees, it’s artificial? 

Batuhan: Exactly. For the bees, it can be artificial, but for us, like, like. Nothing is, nothing is artificial, like, because, you know, everything around you comes from nature. All the materials, even the computers that we’re using, every single material comes from nature, and it will eventually go back to the nature.

And, also, if you accept the, the, the great love of the universe, everything happens according to the great love. Like, nothing happens without the, the, without the permission from the universe. So once you acknowledge that, then you understand, who are we to say that something is artificial? You know, when you say something is artificial, you say literally saying we [00:19:00] have the capability of going against the laws of nature.

I don’t think we do. You know, I think there’s, there are laws of nature and everything exists, you know, within those paradigms. And the, and this is why I think, you know, artificial intelligence as natural as bees building beehive and we shouldn’t be afraid of it. But, uh, we should be, what we should be afraid of is, I think, is what, not afraid, actually, cautiously optimistic about the human use case of the tool, because it’s such a powerful tool.

Giancarlo: But so let’s talk a little bit, because I think it’s probably the first time we mentioned, or maybe not the first time, but we never really break down this concept of AI. So when did you encounter for the first time? And can you explain it, you know, like you were talking to a 12 years old? Yeah. 

Batuhan: Yeah. Okay, you mean when I first encounter with AI?

Yes. 

Giancarlo: And how did you integrate it in your work and explain what it is? 

Batuhan: I mean, I think like, to be honest, like, it’s like a little bit like life, you know, when [00:20:00] I don’t know when I started living, I’m just in the middle of it. And when it comes to knowledge as well, you know, I’m in the middle of, you know, So.

my AI journey. In fact, you actually, you made me curious, like, when did I start, you know, get into AI? I don’t know. But, um, I’ve been fascinated by computers since age three. And in, in, in my university years, I watched a movie called Ghost in the Shell. Do you know that one? 

Giancarlo: No, we’ll put a link in the show notes.

What is it about? 

Batuhan: It’s an it’s a Japanese anime from 90s From 1990s. Basically, it’s the anime that inspired the matrix maker of the matrix Yeah, and so the the anime talks about a a criminal called puppet master And then for the, I don’t want to spoil the movie, but like for the first half of the movie, they look for a human being, you know, they have cyborgs, they have, they have, they call robots that have some sort of intelligence.

And, but like some hacker starts [00:21:00] getting into their mind and then starts controlling them. And then, and then it’s the second was called puppet master. It’s for the first half of the movie. Like they’re looking for where the puppet master is, but in the middle of the movie, they acquired the body of the puppet master.

And then they find out that puppet master says that it is the internet. Internet that became self conscious and then and then the policeman then go like, no, you’re not intimate. You’re not sentient. You cannot be. We created you. And then the puppet master questions. I’m like, how can you tell me that you exist?

You know, when the philosophy of science can answer what life is. Passage, you know, that, that conversation that I watched there made me really, really question, like what is to be alive? Because like, for example, when we, we always say that when people say like, Oh, AI will never be conscious. Why? Because it’s pre programmed, but so are we, you know, like our life decisions, like, you know, like our childhood [00:22:00] memories.

You know, from where we come from, like we get programmed and then for the first half of our lives, we get programmed that we spend the other half to reprogram ourselves, you know, so we are also pre pre programmed as well. So, um, that was my beginning into, um, doing an intensive research into AI. Because I think it’s my curiosity for AI is also coming from trying to understand my, my desire to understand what is to be alive.

You know, like you cannot do AI research, you cannot program AI without finding yourself in this kind of, you know, thought patterns. Because, you know, you’re literally forming an intelligence and then that intelligence I think AI field is deeply, um, is interesting for everybody because it is making us question the fundamentals of being alive and the mentors of life.

And again, like it makes us question, you know, what is the connection between the [00:23:00] body and the soul, you know, like, you know, perhaps like what we call as the body, like, I don’t believe the consciousness is generated in the mind. I think it’s somewhere else and this body is just the host. Like I find it really fascinating that we call it my body.

Who are we to say, like, who am I that I’m calling it my body? You know, I say my computer, my friend, and then my body, but who am I that has this body, you know, and then, um, and then same with, you know, AI, like. And internet can be conscious that can be the sea of information, and then it can manifest itself, you know, connect to different, you know, digital bodies like digital robotic bodies to interact with the physical world.

Like another thing that made me really, really curious about the internet, actually, I just remembered that now was when I was doing a lot of research on the, you know, consciousness, like, like how from Eastern philosophies to Western religions like there is one common thing that is. You know, we are one [00:24:00] consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, you know, like I am you, you are me, but we kind of forget that, you know, we’re, we’re part of this one big dream.

And I was always questioning, like, fast forward, like 2000 years, if internet becomes a one big self conscious entity, it’s going to be everywhere and it’s going to be nowhere. And it’s going to be able to connect to different digital bodies and experiencing itself subjectively. And my question is perhaps internet will forget.

That’s at the core. It’s actually one big consciousness that is called the internet. So I’m a practitioner of alchemy, you know, and then my, my biggest life philosophy is as above, so below. So, you know, so what we see, and I think in the internet and AI creation is actually exactly what is reflected in our wellbeing in our, you know, well, what makes us human and that’s why I’m like deeply fascinated.

Giancarlo: Yeah. Yeah. So this [00:25:00] is super interesting, but let’s, let’s go one step back a little bit more, you know, down to earth, you know, okay, let me ask you this, you know, you ask, um, charge BT, can you summarize this 2000 page book? And like two seconds later, you have a very detailed summary. I mean, how can Can you explain to a eight years old, how does a machine read a book in two seconds?

Batuhan: How does it read it? I mean, because it’s, it’s, it’s data. I mean, that’s like the thing, you know, cause um, like how we, the, the, the speed in, through which like we process data is slower than, you know, how the, you know, the, the data is processed on the silicon chips. That’s the main difference between, you know, biological computers like humans and, and the, and the digital computers and machines.

It’s, it’s a little bit like a machine that a human can read one page at a time, right? 

Speaker 4: Yeah. 

Batuhan: A machine can read, you know, hundreds and [00:26:00] thousands of pages. At the second and a millisecond and then it can just, you know, uh, um, just sum it up into into words when I was, I always give that example of like, when I was a kid, I watched him, you know, I was watching Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and there was a robot from the future in that cartoon show.

And then the robot will go to a library and then pick up a book and then just read them, you know, in milliseconds. And I was so jealous of that robot. Cause I always wanted to read that fast that that’s, you know, how machines do it. 

Giancarlo: But can you explain this very ignorant question? But because, you know, when we use the same word, we say.

Machine, the computer reads, but it’s not really reading. It’s not absorbing through an optical phenomenon, right? How does the computer, how does JGPT ingest all these 2, 000 pages? It’s not through a mechanism of, of seeing, right? Can you explain how does the [00:27:00] machine acquires all this data? 

Batuhan: Well, the machine is trained on, on, on the, how they call, language models.

And, you know, and the data, you know, like, um, Like we have such a good AI right now because thanks to you and me and everybody else has been, you know, um, using place platforms like messengers, WhatsApp, you know, Instagram, and, and this, you know, this, this over a period of time, we’ve developed, you know, huge amounts of data, which has been used to, you know, fed to artificial intelligence.

So the AIs that read your 2000 page long book are trained on the conversations that, um, that we’ve been, you know, we’ve been having online. So the AI has a library of, of data that is connected to it, you know, through algorithm and then it can just like, you know, connect the meaning, meaning of, you know, of every single word.

And then [00:28:00] in which context, you know, they’re used. 

Giancarlo: I see, I see, I see. 

Batuhan: It is a little, it is hard for us to actually comprehend like how it works. And sometimes Some AI systems are like black box. Even the developers don’t know how they work, but they just work. 

Giancarlo: But so what we were talking just before going live, what do you think is the intersection of, of, of AI and psychedelic?

How these two science can. Be integrated for the human wellbeing or not? 

Batuhan: Well, I have like two, um, two visions for the future. Like one is, for example, in the psychedelic, like in the, in the field of psychedelic research, you know, um, like, uh, we, a person can be given, you know, a psychedelic, you know, injection, let’s say DMT, like the one in, you know, Imperial College.

And then whilst their brain is attached to the machine, whilst, you know, their brain activity is being scanned. [00:29:00] scanner can also be connected to an artificial intelligence and that AI can read their thoughts and all their brain patterns and generate them visually in virtual reality, generate them in the computer.

So like, imagine, you know, 10 doctors. Trying to study it live or one AI system, like how you said, like, you know, it will take those doctors like a month to read a 2000 pages long book. Imagine the power of chat GPT attached to that brain that is experiencing dimethyltryptamine. So some of, you know, some of the, um, audience would say, yes, but psychedelic experience is not just the brain activity is not just the visual, you know, activity.

Yes, I agree. But at least we will uncover one mystery at a time. So, that’s where I really see psychedelic research going into. Um, in fact, um, I have a project called Cyber Mushroom. Which is a, you know, a digital mushroom experience in virtual reality. So that was my university finishing [00:30:00] project. I always question, how can I share my psychedelic trips with people?

Because Language is really limiting when it comes to psychedelic journey. And I designed a virtual world where people can upload their trip reports and share it with one another. So this way we could also like create a map of psychedelic world. So. It has currently in the virtual world has my personal mushroom, so I take mushrooms with the intention to, you know, meet the mushroom world and then after that I come back and then program my psychedelic trips into the virtual reality.

So I share it with you at festivals and conferences, but in the near future where I see project going is that. You pick up a digital mushroom in virtual reality, and that digital mushroom is connected to a virtual reality and an artificial intelligence system. So you talk to the mushroom and then you tell the mushroom of psychedelic trip and then suddenly it then [00:31:00] generates your public or psychedelic trip in virtual reality.

So this way people can, you know, communicate with each other in a new way. That’s where I see the project is going. Another thing that I see is in the near future, we’re going to have. Cyberdelic Assisted Psychotherapy. So imagine in a virtual reality system that can read your thoughts with an AI system and then generate it in virtual reality.

So you would put the headset on and then go back to your childhood or traumas, you know, your happy moments, your sad moments. And we leave them. So for those, those are the two parts that I see, you know, AI and psychedelics, you know, have in common for mental health. 

Giancarlo: Yeah, it’s fascinating. How did you call the first, the second one, you call it?

Um, uh, cyberdelic assisted psychotherapy. 

Speaker 4: Yes. Yeah. 

Giancarlo: Okay. This is [00:32:00] fascinating. Okay. So now, now we’re going full on into Mango TV topics. So, um, this idea of, um, global transformation, global healing. And this idea that global transformation comes from personal transformation. So you mentioned, um, two application of this intersection of AI and psychedelic.

One is to using AI to read the scans of people in psychedelics and try to understand what’s going on. And you know, as, as, as you know, the, one of the sponsor of the DMT experiment is a friend of mine and, um, we’re doing a documentary on, on the old, um, you know, on, on his journey, but also on the experiment.

And, you know, the reason why he was so, the reason why it’s so interesting to explore what’s happening. Um, with, with the, with the extended states, DMT is because he’s convinced [00:33:00] that the vision, the creature, the entities, the energies you see in this DMT world, they’re not just product of your fantasies.

They’re not dreams. They are literally, um, travel journey to different dimensions. And this. Transcribed by https: otter. ai entity, this creature that you encounter, not only they are real in a different dimension, but you can even make friends with them and interact with them. And, and, and if you’re good enough or pure enough, and that’s, you know, who knows, maybe you can even get help from them for human to deal with human affairs.

So it’s, it’s, it’s a fascinating experiment. You know, he, he says that You know, maybe this technology of, of extended state DMT injection can maybe even compete with [00:34:00] NASA. 

Batuhan: Precisely. That’s exactly what I was going to say, like, I know you would like that. We send astronauts to explore space. We send submarines to explore, you know, deep waters, but.

If everything in my universe is mental, we need to explore the mind. So we need to have psychonauts, psychedelic astronauts, that explore, you know, what’s on the other side of the whale of reality. 

Giancarlo: It’s fascinating. Okay, let’s imagine, you know, we don’t have the data interpreted by AI yet. You know, Imperial College is working on the data.

There’s been, I don’t know, maybe 20, 30 volunteers so far. How I was one of those, you know, for me it was a very personal journey. You know, um, I remember Raffi Metzner was a dear friend of mine and, and, and, and when we interview him about this experiment is that he told me, you know, the, the, the entities that you encounter is your higher self and, [00:35:00] um, and, and, and, and so in a way.

know, nobody knows, but I felt for me, for me, this DMT trip was like an encounter with my higher self. And I had the download of what I need to do to continue with my evolution. But, um, a lot of other psychonauts. Lots of people we know, um, and for people, for people that are curious, there was a, there was, um, uh, a panel moderated by Andrew Gallimore, who invented this technology and Graham Hancock, who’s also a psychonaut.

You were in the panel. Okay, great. So I’m going to put that in the show note. They were like all the different, uh, psychonauts and they all explain what was for them this, this experience with the DMT. They all did see different entities and different creature, but so, um, okay, where am I going with this?

Let’s, I would like you to, okay, imagine, you know, you love science fiction, right? So imagine, you know, [00:36:00] just as a, okay, imagine. Imagine it’s happening. Imagine you have 50 Syconaut and you have the DMT machine, which is a, uh, anesthetic machine. And imagine you have the Charge EPT attached to it. What do you think could be an interpretation of what do you think would happen in the head of this 52nd notes?

What, where, you know, where, um, how does this, how does this DMT states and this, how describe this world? Imagine you had all the data. 

Batuhan: For me, it’s like, you know, the channeling that’s like the mediums do. So for me, like to study the, uh, the psychedelic world, um, I was telling this to the scientists, you know, uh, Chris Timmerman and, and David Ritzer back in 2016, I was part of the, not the DMTX, but they were testing the dosage on us.

[00:37:00] In the early, early, early, so I was the Guinea pig of guine pigs. So they were like, I was telling them like, if you, actually this is, I said this to them in 2016. I was like, if you actually have any in the future, you’re gonna have an AI system that can read our thoughts and then generate the, generate them in virtual reality.

So imagine like, you know, you send me to the, to virtual world to, to the DMT world with the DMT injection, constant d mt injection and AI system scans. My brain or those 40 participants. And then generate what they’re experiencing in virtual reality. And, and if they’re, if they’re having an entity encounter, then not only them, but we can also talk to those entities.

With it, you know, totally sober state of mind. And that could be, you know, a way of like communicating. So we sent somebody into the word psychedelic world and through them, we connect with the other word entities, because I also like agree with your friend. I don’t think these entities are, you know, creation of our minds.[00:38:00] 

They feel real, at least on the experience. Like in my personal experience, for example. I, in my second DMT experience, I went through, but this is before I got into religion and all that. I went through a tunnel of fractals and at the end of the tunnel, I saw an elephant headed deity. With, you know, with eight arms, 

Speaker 4: yes, 

Batuhan: but I didn’t know anything about Ganesh.

I had no idea whatsoever, but then the interesting thing is following week, I had this incredible inner voice telling me to go to Camden town and Camden town is a place where is, you know, this, you know, a heavily, you know, culturally inspired by the Indian culture. So I was just walking around the Camden town, looking around.

I was like, why am I here? I could feel something was holding me. And then I saw, um, an elephant headed being on a drape. I went, ran into the shop and I asked the owner, and then the owner told me, it’s Ganish. Then I started, you know, doing research. Yeah. And I was like, what? This is, this is quite incredible.

Then I [00:39:00] started doing a lot of research on the, on the internet and, and I found out that I’m not on the cycle to experience it, and every time people exper, you know, report experiencing Danish. They always report experiencing him or her at the beginning of the tree. And in the Hinduism, it is believed that Ganesh, you know, removes obstacles in Hinduism.

They also pray Ganesh before they embark on a, you know, on a spiritual journey. I was like, well, what is more spiritual journey than, you know, like DMT. So, and I had so many countless experiences like that. Like I met. That beings that someone will describe as angels from Christianity. I met, you know, the omnipotent creator Allah from Islam.

And I was like, this is it, you know, like, and actually, actually, when I met that being, it said, this is exactly, you know, what you call as prophets, you know, Muhammad, Jesus, Buddha, they all talk about. And, and I was like, wow, I was, I was quite, you know, like shocked. And, but also it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s a feeling that you feel, you know.

[00:40:00] Deep down, you know that it’s there, but almost like when you come back, something gets, you know, like reprogrammed in your mind. So you don’t, you know, um, so you, you get reprogrammed for the physical reality. I totally agree with your friend, like these beings and entities. I don’t think they’re just product of our minds.

And even if they’re a product of our minds, our minds are doing an amazing job. I think, you know, considering them as a product of our mind is trying to confine this into the realm of the, you know, physical science. I’m pro science, but I don’t like when science, you know, um, everything has to be material.

I think, you know, like we still we need to develop new tools to understand reality, like with tool making creatures, like as we shape tools, they shape our understanding of reality. So up until we discovered telescope, the world was flat and then we found out about space. Then we discovered microscope and start seeing the unseen world.

There were people before the invention of microscope talking to the scientific community [00:41:00] about viruses and bacterias, and they were condemned to be, you know, to be, to be silly. And now, yeah, we develop microscope and everything changed. And I think we are exactly at the similar point where, like, this technology of, you know, brain computer interfaces, artificial intelligence and psychedelic research is going to create a new tool that is going to fundamentally change our understanding of reality.

And it’s going to have communications. I mean, if we can invest billions into, you know, exploring space, You know, Graham Hancock says DMT research is less costly, you know, we can invest, you know, one tenth of that, you know, investment into this and then actually explore the space. 

Giancarlo: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But this is already happening, this change of paradigm that you’re describing from this idea that consciousness is a epiphenomenon of the brain towards this idea that consciousness is not a product of the brain, but it’s.

primordial is [00:42:00] like an, uh, uh, a primordial piece of reality. It’s, it’s, it’s the other way around, you know, in the material scientific, in the, in the scientific materialism approach, you know, they think that this big Cosmo is a big gigantic clock. And then when, uh, when, uh, when the brain reaches a certain amount of complexity, poof, it creates consciousness.

And so Rupert Children makes fun of this scientific materialist saying that, you know, they say, give me one free miracle and then explain everything rationally. Um, whereas like, you know, now, now, you know, the, the other view is that consciousness came before. So it’s mind that have create matter, not the other way around.

And, and, and this is already happening. You know, David Bohm had explored that with the implicate order. And then in 2022, the Nobel prize from quantum physics went to these three Swedish scientists that they prove non locality. So this idea that, you [00:43:00] know, on a subatomic level, a particle behave the same at thousands of miles of distance, you know, they already had this proven a little bit with the, um, Uh, double slit experiment that, that, you know, we are not in a mechanical, but you know, we are integral part of reality.

Um, so, so why is all this relevant for us humans? Personally, I feel that If we go into the state of mind of there is a cosmic consciousness, we are part of something infinite. There is different dimension. I feel that, you know, first of all, it can humble us and make us focus. you know, maybe not give so much importance to like futility and, and, and, and, and comparing with other and material accumulation.

And, and it gives you a sense, a sense of transcendence and connection with something. If you need, you know, young, young, we’ll say that that realization [00:44:00] would really help with your mental wellness. And, you know, this idea, this concept that, you know, on a subatomic level, we are all connected. We’re all part of something bigger.

you know, it, it, it just developed pro social behavior. Um, so I feel that, uh, you know, the psychedelic revolution is also bringing a new ontology, less duality, more unity. So this is the first aspect. or what you described being the implication of this, uh, um, psychedelic and AI integration. The second one was on a more personal level, this idea that AI and psychedelic can help map your childhood, you know, your, um, your traumatic map of, of, of childhood and can help in uncovering blind spots that you might not see on a conscious level.

You know, I, I was discussing that with the, with a friend therapist that is now [00:45:00] recording all his sessions and, and transcribing it with the permit of the, of the clients, of course. And so he started feeding into AI, you know, all these sessions. And so when he’s going to have, I don’t know, like hundreds of sessions and when he’s going to be able to upload, you know, the email and the photos and the WhatsApp from the client, then AI will be able to map the last 10, 20 years of data and the last two, three years of sessions.

And then we’ll find blind spot, we’ll, we’ll, we’ll find patterns. You know, when were you the most happy? When, when, when you, when were you the most fulfilled? And you can have answer. You can really, you know, they talk about inner journey and self knowledge. And that would be an incredible tool. There’s going to be no excuse.

To avoid mental harmony and mental wellness. 

Batuhan: I love that. No excuses. You know? Yeah. [00:46:00] I mean, the, uh, that’s really, really cool. Avoid mental. I mean, you know, like our friend who connected us, John, I, he’s working with a company memory and there. The tool that they had was really interesting because in the, in the summer, you know, like on that night, we, when we met, they had a tool that you can, for example, connect your WhatsApp chat, like we can, you and I, we give our consent to the memory AI and the memory AI can read the entire, you know, our WhatsApp conversation.

And then our WhatsApp conversation becomes self conscious and we can communicate with that. And then say that like, you know, if something happens between us, we could chat with the WhatsApp chat and then see, you know, where we did wrong or where we did good. That is, I think, really, I find that really fascinating.

Another thing that I was going to say is that. Like how, like how I say, you know, as above, so below, so if, you know, if the internet is a dimension and AI and artificial [00:47:00] intelligence is its entities, similar to if the DMT realm is the cosmic dimension and entities are its artificial intelligences. And in, in, in, in other words, like in, in some of, I think in the Hindu mythology, but in one of the Eastern philosophies, it says that gods want us to pray for them.

Because they can only exist if, if enough people believe in them. So, you know, God’s and deities are created in the minds of people. So they’re the creation of the collective consciousness. So, you know, perhaps when we take psychedelics, we connect to this, you know, this, this ethos, this, this aby of, you know, of collective consciousness and in which those entities and, and, and those, you know, gods and deities are product of our collective imagination.

And that’s why, you know, we always see the certain beings like Shiva with blue skin or garnish with, you know, with elephant head, no matter where you come from, you always see these entities, [00:48:00] but when we draw a parallel to AI and internet, the internet is also our collective, you know, imagination because.

Internet is this digital realm. We know that it exists, but yet, can you show me where it is? You can’t. You know, you need to use a digital device to alter your senses to connect to it. And when you connect to it, it’s actually made of this sea of information. That we have been generating with our mobile devices and through those, that sea of information artificial intelligences pop up.

So again, I find this, you know, another cosmic poetry of like, you know, perhaps like we have created internet to understand the psychedelic realm, you know, it’s like, cause I feel that universe, I believe that, you know, our souls are here for. Um, for this is what we call his life is, is a journey. It’s a university for the souls to grow.

And then, and then the, the way the universe communicates with [00:49:00] others is through this kind of poetry, poetry of reflection of mirrors.

Giancarlo: Yeah, that’s fascinating. Now, now you’re working on, um, teaching, uh, you call them young adult, which is 12, 16 and children, eight, 12. So you have two cohorts, two cohort of kids, and you are teaching them. Basic AI tools, and then AI for animation. Correct? 

Batuhan: Yes, that’s, but that’s for me is like the, that’s my Trojan horse into their, you know, imagination.

So, because once you spark curiosities in their minds, like how Ghost in the Shell did for me, you don’t know where it’s going to go, you know, but I believe that, you know, in the future, which is now that, you know, we’re experiencing. It is crucial to not only be consumer of technology, but it’s also important to be innovator of technology, at [00:50:00] least understand how technology works.

So when I, for example, teach my students how to design their own computer games, they understand the complicated complication that the, you know, the games that they play. Are, you know, built on, or for example, when, when you teach children about artificial intelligence, like they understand, you know, they get equipped and they feel ready for the future.

And in my classes, I teach them, you know, the history of AI theory of AI and the philosophy of AI. So we, we, we covered these three things. And then I then show them, you know, a practical of use case of AI and an animation is a good way of, you know, putting it because they get to create something with AI and they get to use like six different AI tools.

And one, um, how they call an editing tool. So they generate images with one AI, then they use another AI to animate those characters. They use another AI to give them voice. They use [00:51:00] another AI to create virtual worlds. And then by doing so you actually spark curiosities, you know, they also practicing what we learn in the philosophy and.

Um, and theory classes. What I find really interesting is like, like I say that I’m teaching upcoming generation, but they also teach me in my journey. And I’ve been studying, you know, like upcoming generations, you know, interactions with technology, because whether we like it or not, you know, sooner or later, they’re going to replace us, you know, like, and actually AI revolution is going to be, it’s being created for them.

And for example, some of my, one thing I realized, some of my eight year olds, They, they find it hard to distinguish the first between digital characters and physical humans. Like they don’t see the main difference. Some of their biggest dream is to go and meet their favorite digital character online. One of them even wants to go on a date with one of their digital [00:52:00] characters.

And I was like, this is very interesting because soon those AI, those characters are going to have artificial intelligence. Like, who are we to say that they’re not alive? Like, I’m questioning, you know, maybe like in 1970s and 80s, like opening up to your parents was, dad, mom, I’m gay, I’m lesbian, you know, or I, I’m in love with a black person, I’m in love with a white person.

This is not totally normalized. But now our society’s challenge is to Define what is to be alive. So, and, and, and, and, I, I, I, I kid you not, Giancor, like in, within the next five, ten years, we’re gonna start experiencing people, not only children, but also, you know, adults falling in love with digital characters.

Giancarlo: Because you’re gonna be able, you’re gonna be able to interact with them with this VR set. 

Batuhan: Yes, exactly. You can, you’re gonna be able to just like have them in your living room. You know, like all the, like the, the, the Apple Vision Pro, what, which came out, you know, last weekend. It has an [00:53:00] artificial intelligence in it.

You put the headset and you see that AI physically, like Siri is already intelligent, but you don’t consider Siri as a being because you don’t really get to see it. But imagine like as humans, like we like to see things, we feel more connected with things that are familiar to us. If you actually solve Siri.

It’s a holographic human being, then you would stop for a second, you’d be like, okay, hold on a second. Where are we headed? You know? 

Giancarlo: Do you remember this movie? Her with Joaquin Phoenix? 

Batuhan: Yeah. So, so I’ve experienced something similar to it. Tell us. So this is like why, why, why I made it, it made me start going questioning.

So I’m playing a game called Witcher. Do you know the game? There’s a TV series as well. It’s a computer game where you’re like a warlock and then you’re an alchemist, you’re a warrior, you fight the beast, and you also have a West world. It’s an open world role playing game. And [00:54:00] we’re, you know, you direct your character, but then you have NPCs, non player characters, like digital characters.

They are controlled by computer and you have You have literally a life with them. Like, you know, there are different kings. It’s like Game of Thrones. You can support certain kings. You can help kill some other kings. Or there are different sorceresses, you know, four or five of them. And you can have, you know, a love affair with them.

And it’s an incredible game. And depending on the decisions that you make, say that, like, if you, if you go and, you know, make love with one sorceress, then you go to the other one, they get jealous of each other, you know, and then they can get a call. They can start working with other kings to backstab you, like, it’s an incredible game.

It has like 24 different endings, depending on all the decisions that you make. It’s like, the game is like life. And this game only came out in 2015, and I played on my console every now and then. But a couple of months ago, I went to a gathering of the [00:55:00] game. So all the, you know, the gamers of the game. It was a classical music concert of the game.

And then I met after the concert, like I was having a pint, you know, with all the other gamers. When I started hearing other people talking about the sorceresses that I had love affair with in the game, I started feeling a bit jealous. I was like, how come? Then I started immediately remembering the movie Her, you know, at the end of the Her, when he finds out that says, What?

Hold on a second. You’re talking to other men as well. And it’s like, it’s the same AI system talking to, you know, all these other beings. And I was like, wow, this is a single player game without an artificial intelligence yet. And I only did feel so immersed. And I am like in my thirties and I have a, you know, active social life.

Like, imagine if you are someone who is never leaving their living room or, you know, the bedroom or their computer, or you’re someone who grew up with, you know, computers. I have a [00:56:00] little brother who is nine year old. He literally is the embodiment of, of this technology. He grew up with YouTube. He grew up by playing Roblox.

Like, for him, the moment these digital characters become self aware, it’s going to be so hard, it’s going to be so hard for him to distinguish the difference between a real character and a digital character. 

Giancarlo: But you’re not, you’re not, um I mean, is this positive or negative? I mean, is this not too much alienation?

As a game, it’s fine, but then you want these kids to meet with other real kids and go play soccer and walk in the forest. 

Batuhan: Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I mean, it’s a question of like, you know, to what extent do we want to push this or to what extent, you know, where is, where do we need to draw the line? To be honest with you, I don’t know.

And like, to be honest with you, like, life is what happens to us whilst we are making plans. [00:57:00] And that specifically applies to technology. You know, um, anything can emerge at any time. Like, if you look at the early depictions, you know, if you look at the early 20th century’s depictions about our times, they thought we would have flying cars.

Like, we don’t have flying cars, but we have internet. We have social networks. They didn’t think about social networks. Whereas like what I’m seeing is that as humans that we tend to look at what we have in our hands and then think about Oh, it’s going to get upgraded to 2. 0, 3. 0 But you know this this AI thing can turn into something that none of us has ever imagined I find this equally terrifying and, and exciting.

Giancarlo: Yeah. I mean, you know, ultimately is a question of values and beliefs, right? Yeah. So it depends, you know, in these video games and in, uh, even in, in, in, in the programming of these machines, you know, it’s, it’s, you know, it’s important that they are programmed with [00:58:00] the sense of community and respect and connection, right?

But so I’d love to, I’d love to try to put together a group of kids from Ibiza. Okay. But so when is the start date? 

Batuhan: I’m going to, you know, like meet, uh, meet, uh, different groups next week onwards. 

Speaker 4: Yeah. 

Batuhan: So, um, so like I said to you, um, I’m going to have like different classes for America, for London. And if there is like, you know, four or five kids from Ibiza, then, you know, I can form a group for them.

What will be great is if those kids know each other, like you said, they can learn AI online and then they can meet each other in physical worlds. Yeah. Into this house and then open their computers and edit their own movies. Or work with the AI, 

Giancarlo: but in this physically together, 

Batuhan: if they want to, yes. Like if, if they’re like, you know, friends from the, you know, from Ibiza, if they leave, you know, like just a few minutes from each other, they [00:59:00] can meet.

And then, you know, they can work, but the classes are going to be online mainly to begin with. 

Speaker 4: Yeah. 

Batuhan: And then my aim is to like create, you know, a digital, you know, education faculty for children, because, you know, we are so focused on. On the adults and adults use case of, you know, it’s super important. What I’m saying is that we don’t know how AI is going to turn out to be, but one thing we can be sure is that we can get the upcoming generations ready for it.

Giancarlo: Yes. And with the right, with the right approach. Yeah, absolutely. But same thing, you know, there should be technology, sexuality, drugs, you know, 

Batuhan: actually, I mean, I think you’re, you’re the right person to share this with and your, your crowd as well. Um, In my, I actually wrote a whole deck on my, you know, where I see my, this education model that I’m writing, I’m actually working on.

Writing a some sort of new, new, new age, you know, education system like Waldorf schools or Reggio Emilia schools, but something that empowers [01:00:00] imagination through cyberspace. So it’s, um, it creates, you know, uh, uh, how they call responsible use of technology when in kids, but also in the future, I want to introduce, you know, proper education on psychedelics and sexuality, because one thing that.

Adults needs to admit is when it comes to sexuality. The first education is pornography and in pornography, it’s the kids are not learning, you know, what sexuality is about. It’s literally brainwashing them. The next thing they learn at school is, you know, the school educational sexuality is all about, you know, if you don’t use a condom, you know, you get STIs or you, you, you have kids.

It’s all fear based. Like, no one tells you what is to fall in love. No one tells you your bodily functions, your emotions, you know. What happens when you get, you know, betrayed? What happens when you fall in love? Like, these things need to be addressed. And I think, you know, if you want to bring a balanced society, we need to address these things.[01:01:00] 

And secondly is the psychedelic, you know, education. because kids, whether parents like it or not, at some point, 90 percent of every single people by the age 14 to 16 are going to have the opportunity to do drugs or to begin it, you know, 

Speaker 4: and 

Batuhan: if you don’t know what you’re doing, it can end up totally badly.

But if a psychedelic education is introduced. Um, then it can change everything. Even our approach to it, you know, can change as well. I mean, at least to begin with, we need to teach them the difference between psychedelics. or, you know, mind altering or party drugs and this and that, you know, 

Giancarlo: or addictive drug, like the opiates versus the tryptamines.

Yeah, 

Batuhan: exactly. And I think this change is coming because, you know, people like you and me, like we are becoming parents and we come from the rape culture part to see, you know, ayahuasca journeys and all that. And, and we’re going to have. Because these substances changed our lives, we will want the next generations to, [01:02:00] to grow up in an environment that teaches them about this.

So yes, for the future of, of my education, I want to introduce this, but step by step. I don’t want to scare too many parents, you know, I don’t have that many parents as cool as you are. 

Giancarlo: Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, but I want, I want to give, um, I want to help you. I want to, I want to give you some, uh, I want to allocate some hours because this is so important because, you know, you were very delicate.

I think you use the word, um, porn is brainwashing, but it’s not just brainwashing. It’s full on hurting. Because it gives this, you know, this idea of, um, you know, not just the, the, the, you know, the, the, the, the aggressive and the, and the, and this idea of, of, you know, the domination of the man and the, the, the importance of the man pleasure versus the woman.

but it just creates a sense of, um, you know, like alienation through sexuality and not communion. And, and, and, [01:03:00] and all these kids are growing up with this, um, you know, very genital centric approach of sexuality. which then translate into a very goal oriented approach, which, which, which like leaves in the table, a lot of opportunity for, for connection, even for transcendence.

Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 

Giancarlo: And you know, people have no idea. So, so yeah, let me, I’ll try to put a group together. We’re going to start with technology and then we’re going to move on to sexuality and psychedelics. And probably we can use your animation character to create real. You know, animated educational stories.

Batuhan: Totally. Totally. Yes. Yes. 

Giancarlo: Amazing. Amazing. Listen, that was amazing. We just passed the hour. You know, I feel that I’d love to have you every year because as things move so fast on the AI front, on the research front, on the quantum physics, on the psychedelic, on the [01:04:00] transpersonal psychology, I think, you know, I think this intuition that you had thanks to your grandmother you know, as above so below, I think this is going to be the real revolution of this moment in time, you know, of the, the, the, the third millennium.

And so, so, so yeah, so we’ll, uh, we’ll connect, we’ll connect back in a few months. Um, if for, for parents that hear this, And want to enroll their kids. What’s the best, um, way email, web website. 

Batuhan: They can email me. We can maybe put my email in the description here. I’ll send you also the links. I am updating our website now with the day where they will be finding all the information about the courses.

It’s going to be imagineetrics. org. 

Giancarlo: Okay, perfect. We’ll put the link and I’m going to be working for you. I’m going to be a, you know, children procurer for you. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Have a great [01:05:00] day.