34: Benjamin De Loenen on Ibogaine and the Challenges of its Globalisation

Giancarlo: [00:00:00] Hello. Hi, welcome to this new episode of the mango TV podcast today. I’m very excited to have Ben. The loan in Benjamin, the loan in studied audiovisual media and communication in the Netherlands, where he graduated with honors. From his masters in his documentary, Ebo gain, right of passage, a theme that remains an important reference on the subject matter.

Benjamin has been dedicated to indigenous master plans, the indigenous community, and the challenge that come with the globalization of these [00:01:00] practices since then. In 2009, he founded the International Center for Ethnobotanical Education, Research and Service, ICERS, a charitable non profit organization with United Nations consultative status, where he serves as Executive Director.

Benjamin is the author of several publications and films, has presented at conferences all around the world, and has participated in various leadership roles, including as a member of the Board of Directors of the Global Ibogaine Therapist Alliance. Thank you for being here. Welcome. Thank you. So, how did it all start?

Your passion for for this magical plant and wanting to help them, preserve them, protect them, facilitate the usage, facilitate the education. What was the cathartic moment? 

Benjamin: I mean, I’ve the story that I always thought was really behind this and then there’s the one I started to discover along the way.

So I’ll maybe start with the [00:02:00] official one that I always you know, thought looking back at my life. In 2001, I became a film student in Holland. And I just read a, a little article about iboga, ibogaine. And it said that, you know, it has a great potential for the treatment of addiction. But that it’s not recognized, it’s stigmatized.

And not, the pharmaceutical industry is not interested. And that it comes from a tradition in, in Gabon of rites of passage. If that was true, then, you know, it looked to me like a good subject matter for my final exam project. And so I started to research, got heavily involved in the community, met Howard Lotsoff, who had discovered its anti additive properties, and he opened the door to centers, experts, and I really started meeting everyone.

You know, so I then really made the film took me all over the world. It took me to Gabon as well, where I for the first time saw an indigenous community, you know, doing a rite of passage with Iboga, which was really an incredible [00:03:00] experience. The Bwiti. The Bwiti, exactly. And the incredible thing there was that for one person who needed an initiation, the whole community came together for five days to sustain that person through the process.

Giancarlo: Yeah, we had Bruce Perry that, that told that story. Yeah. And they all tried basically hold him up in the air because he couldn’t touch the ground. Yeah. Right. 

Benjamin: And I was, I was there as a filming, you know, but same time, you know, I was really there and it really You know, touch me. And since the beginning at that time, because there were these two completely opposite worlds, one was a medical subculture of highly stigmatized and discriminated people.

You know, far away from their families, often completely broken, no self love. who then, you know, were helping to, you know, heal each other very often just alone on a bed going through the experience and then going home and trying to manage to stay clean and to get their life on, on track. You know, the, the other world was an [00:04:00] indigenous world or a traditional world.

of the Bantu people. And you know, it was a collective process. It was something completely different. So at that time I felt, I was kind of internally wondering like, where is the really boga or what is like, what is the important piece here? And kind of trying to navigate these both worlds. So Iboga really connected me to these two completely different worlds.

And I was kind of figuring out how do they connect. So that was, that was very important. I made the film, I graduated, still worked for like five years as a professional film and documentary and television editor. But my heart was really with Iboga. And the more I presented my film, the more I kind of really, you know, became an educator about the subject.

The more I felt like I needed to abandon, you know, my film career and go for Iboga. 

Giancarlo: So you also tried the medicine? No. 

Benjamin: No, I just saw people going through the processes [00:05:00] and saw the incredible transformation it generated. Then, then really what was a key part is that in 2006, You know, a friend of mine came to a presentation I did with my film.

He already knew the film, so I was surprised he came to a presentation. And he left me a book about ayahuasca. And on the front page it said, you know, for your journey inside. And when I arrived home, I had an invitation to go to a ceremony with the Colombian Taita. 

Giancarlo: So at that point when you got the book, you still hadn’t, didn’t, you still hadn’t tried Iboga?

No. Oh, well, 

Benjamin: no. This was in 2006 and so I thought, you know, this, this is it. Let’s do it. I was very scared, you know, I was kind of, you know, I didn’t know what was going to happen. And then I ended up going and it became like an incredible, the most incredible lesson in surrender. [00:06:00] Surrender to life, you know, to my, my fears, like kind of breaking through my fears, you know, every time as resistance was coming up, it was like, but, you know, letting go.

And then as I let go this most incredible feeling and openness to life, you know, and so the next morning I called my mother and I told her like, you know, I just did this ceremony. And this is the most incredible thing that I’ve experienced. And you know, like, I need to do something with this. And at that moment, it was clear to me that I needed to start a nonprofit organization that, you know, really was dedicated to these plans.

Giancarlo: Can I ask you, I can’t get it off my head, you made a movie about Iboga, but then you preferred to do Ayahuasca instead. 

Benjamin: I didn’t prefer, it came on my path, that’s the way it happened. When you were in 

Giancarlo: Gabon there was no opportunity? 

Benjamin: No, because I was filming in initiation. Like you can’t do both things 

Giancarlo: and you just surrender and 

Benjamin: you know, and I, I, I spoke for, you know, during five [00:07:00] years showing my film everywhere talking about ibogaine, but it was very much focused on ibogaine and addiction.

And then you know, I started to basically, you know, look at ways to get into this. And I start to develop iSeers and the organization, still editing, making a living from the editing, but it started to conflict more and more. But I was afraid to make the jump in the swimming pool because I didn’t know how to swim.

You know, I didn’t know how to lead a nonprofit organization. I didn’t have money. I didn’t know how to fundraise. But my heart really, you know, it felt really I need to do that. And that’s when, in 2009, I went to an Ibogaine conference in Mexico. And some people in the community said, you know, maybe now it’s time for you to try it yourself.

And you know, have an experience. And so I, I agreed. And after the conference, you know, it was a bit of a difficult moment because I just heard for three days about adverse events and [00:08:00] heart issues and all of these, you know, safety and, and then going to do it myself. So it was you know, a bit scary in after three days of hearing that to then go into it.

And it was a very hard experience, you know, and like really for the first 12 hours, which was kind of all, all these kind of idea visions, cognitive. Things that came through, I, you know, I went through a lot of fear and after these, these 12 hours, I thought like, what a horrible substance is this, you know, this didn’t do anything except for creating suffering.

You know, I just basically didn’t feel it do anything constructive with me, but I just suffered basically for 12 hours, trying to make sense of all of these images. Concepts and things that came, came up. Then, but then what I didn’t know is that very differently from Ayahuasca, then with the Bhoga, this whole other phase opened, which is the, the kind of the second, the, the, the integration phase.

But it’s not like an integration after an experience, it’s part of the [00:09:00] experience. And that’s when all of these concepts started to integrate and make sense and get kind of an emotional connection, because it was very disconnected from emotion, the experience itself. A lot of fear, but no, you know, kind of you know, holding, I felt very alone, left alone in the experience.

And so after the next 12 hours or so that’s when I was like, wow, this is the most incredible thing. You know, I just, and, you know, some of the things it did to me, one was I was convinced I never want to have children. You know, I already had my child, Aysir, and, you know, this was my path and there was no space for a child.

And then I realized I didn’t want to lose the opportunity to have a father child experience because it was a lot about that. And then I didn’t get a child immediately, but now, now I have I have a child. And then the other thing was, it immediately was clear, I need to jump in the pool. And one month later, I left Amsterdam where I was living you know, doing the editing and, and I basically ended up [00:10:00] in Barcelona by coincidence.

And then, you know, started the organ, like working full time for ICEERS. In the beginning, you know, there was no funding and then I started learning. It was a beginning of like a really big learning journey that’s still ongoing, you know, today. And 

Giancarlo: so I just want to make sure I understand correctly the Iboga give you this message that you don’t, you don’t want children, but then you thought that 

Benjamin: no, I, I always thought before that the kind of my life path didn’t have space for children, like, you know, and that changed in the Iboga experience 

Giancarlo: because Iboga show you that this resistance was just a resistance to your relationship with your father.

that was just a superficial blockage. Yeah, 

Benjamin: it pointed towards really, you know, my relationship with my father and kind of in general our relationship with our parents. So you went behind that 

Giancarlo: fear. 

Benjamin: Yeah. Even though like after the experience still for like two months and a half, I tried to figure out who I [00:11:00] was It was very hard the integration and you know, I definitely After that, you know changed the way I saw things as well because it you know I saw the delicacy of this as well and I’m seeing this now, you know when people come in and they’re like We’re gonna build a big company.

We’re gonna sit up, you know 50 centers in a few years That’s, that’s not how it works at all. You know, it is delicate and it needs to like to really work within a responsible way is complicated. 

Giancarlo: With these, with these master plans. 

Benjamin: Yeah. Yeah. That, that’s, that’s one of the takeaways I got from it. And at the other side, like there’s an enormous, you know, enormous potential that these plans hold and, and you know, if we work in the right way with it.

Giancarlo: But so let’s, let’s, I want to like unpack that a little bit because it’s interesting. So. So, can you elaborate? Why do you think that when people come, this entrepreneur, they want to open 50 center of plant medicine, why do you think [00:12:00] that there is almost a hidden agenda, right? How can you look so much 

Benjamin: in a hidden agenda?

I think more. It’s like people don’t realize, you know, the really the complexity of, you know, these processes and, you know, the language right now around the kind of the revolution in mental health and psychedelics. It’s very much based on a logic that, you know, you ingest the substance, that’s gonna induce an experience, and then you’re gonna feel better and change your life and it’s gonna have a huge therapeutic impact.

Instead? You know, and that’s really kind of where the business model is built on. You know, instead this is not about an experience, this is about a process. And, you know, and these experiences you know, can throw you into a process and those processes can be really disruptive and they need to properly be held.

So, you know, the focus is so much on the experience itself. You know, you take this, you have this experience and then, wow, you know, my PTSD. It’s [00:13:00] the western medicine approach. It’s very much like, yeah, this, this quick short term thinking. But, you know, the, the thing is that they kick off a process that, You know, if you take the right, if you, you know, respond in the wrong way to the teachings because maybe you didn’t really, you know, understand them in the right way or you, you know, didn’t know how to sustain what happened, what just happened to you, what you experienced, then it can completely derail you as well in a, you know, in a very challenging path and, and you need to sustain afterwards, you know, it’s, It’s a bit like, like labor.

You want a midwife. But not only, the labor is not only during the experience. It’s, it’s afterwards and And the deeper the process, the more you might need, you know, 

Giancarlo: midwifing with the, with the difference that midwifing existed forever. And there is more knowledge where he’s like this Western shaman that speaks a Western [00:14:00] psychoanalytical language that just starting to be formed now.

So it’s not only it’s a process and it’s delicate, the right you know, I drank ayahuasca for years in the, in the, in the in the Colombian Cosmo vision, which was beautiful of father, son and mother moon, but you know, nobody really was able to integrate my experience with my psychological history of childhood trauma and, and, and abandonment and disempowerment and, and, and a little bit.

work with Gabor when he partnered with a shaman in in Yelapa, New Mexico. But then you know, what I’m trying to say is that not just is not easy, but it’s also difficult to find the skillful people that can, that can, you know, that can uncover the subconscious, you know, it’s, it’s not conscious to you, imagine to someone [00:15:00] else.

Benjamin: Yeah. I know the, and there’s, I mean, there’s a lot to unpack in that, no over the years, you know, with through ice years. The way we have worked is really in the beginning, you know, very much responding to what came to us. You know, like a legal case, you know, we need help. We got a ceremony rated, like imagine, and you know, can you help us?

And then we would, you know, get involved, mobilize knowledge to, you know, bring some sense and justice to these type of. Human rights violations you know, and that, and then, then people started to know that we were doing this and we got more requests. The other piece was we got more and more people asking us for help after experiences.

And in 2013 we had you know, Mark Ashalau, who’s we just now finished a book on integration, which I highly recommend. And you know, he, we basically, you know, got him on board, he started to help people. And so we learned a lot about where [00:16:00] things go wrong you know, kind of when people suffer you know, lack of preparation, you know, the way experiences our health, all of the parts afterwards.

And so, you know, we got a pretty good idea about, you know, what is kind of the underbelly belly of, of this world. And then, you know, from everything we learned kind of dealing at the front lines, we was coming up with the needs of these communities. And obviously, you know, we’re, we’re in a cultural context that needs to learn really how to, you know, handle these plans and these practices.

So then we started to look at how can we proactively kind of engage to you know, foster ethics, safety you know sustainability, like right relationship. Because, you know, again, this thing of these two worlds, the indigenous world, and then. You know, kind of our, our men are kind of modern mentality, like, so, you know, there’s what, what I started to do, and this is how I see the last 20 years is really navigate a lot of contradiction you know, [00:17:00] and, and, and examine a lot of kind of also the, my own underlying assumptions and blind spots of, you know, kind of how I, at the beginning really saw the potential of these plans.

You know, the theory of change for me in the beginning was really like, wow, these, these plant substances can induce these incredible experiences and, and provide healing. And what’s in the way is basically prejudice. And that leads to, you know, a drug policy system of prohibition that doesn’t get it and starts to, tries to repress you know, stigma.

You know, bad press you know, all of these type of things. And then kind of, as I started learning more, there was also something about, wow, we actually have a community that needs to come together, become accountable you know, elevate the ethics and safety of the practices. You know, that, that’s kind of what I started to see.

And then kind of, you know, and then it became more like navigating, like a lot of things, ways to talk about these plans and, and working with them. In, in [00:18:00] our world, don’t actually make any sense to people in these spiritual leaders. And then, you know, I had to learn kind of why is that. And it was kind of all of, all of, it’s like the way I see it now, plant medicine really are the nexus of different ways of life, of different ontologies, of different worldviews.

And it, it actually brings them all together and where they clash or, you know, create tension. That’s where I think the real opportunity for, for learning lies. More, more than just saying, all right, we need to make this available to millions of people. That, that logic makes sense for psychedelics, you know, MDMA, so forth.

That makes more sense because there’s no cultural history. It, it kind of, you know, is a substance that can, you know, help people. Help people, you know, cope with their lives in a, in a, in a better way, in a more whole way. But you know, you, I, I really, for the last four years in particular, really have started to see, I [00:19:00] was very blind to the high sophistication of these traditional systems, understanding of healing, understanding of life.

And, and some of the, the issues actually on the, of the underlying assumptions of biomedicine. You know, I’ve become highly skeptic of now, and I think it’s actually wrong to you know, take traditional plants and then integrate them in a biomedical framework. Because these are very opposing systems in terms of how they understand health and healing.

Giancarlo: Okay, so this is interesting. I just would like to stay. Maybe let’s stay with the chronology of icy years. And maybe we can see if we can you know, intertwined with your personal evolution. So I see as 1. 0 was responding to the demand. So this plant was still illegal. So people were asking for legal help.

So you’re coordinating with lawyer and, and, and, and And, and start lobbying with the judge and helping you create a defense fund. Then you had people reaching out [00:20:00] because they were not supported properly for the integration. They were, didn’t have the ontological tool to integrate these new teachings.

So that was ICR 1. 

Benjamin: 0. Yeah. And as well as we you know, Jose Carlos Bosso came on board, he, he’s a, he’s a pioneer in terms of Who wrote the book? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, this is our scientific director. He’s been a pioneer. Actually, the, you know, conducted with MAPS, the first ever MDMA and PTSD study for women who, you know, with sexual abuse in Madrid, and, and that was then politically blocked at some point, which was you know, incredible that that happened.

And, and so he was part of a research team in Barcelona with Jordi Riba, who’s done many years of you know, kind of academic research into safety and you know, therapeutic potential of ayahuasca. So he came on board and we started to be involved, or we were involved pretty early on in, in research as well.

You know, it was like, we need evidence, and we need to make that also practically available in court cases, or in [00:21:00] advocacy, you know, policy work. So we did that. We Oscar Párez, who worked you know, with the Catalan health authorities in harm reduction and you know, the kind of the regulation model for the cannabis social clubs, which is a very interesting model and which I think is very relevant today.

You know, so he came on board. We, we engaged with the, the health authorities, did a conference on the Ibogaine actually in 2010 at, at the health ministry in, in Catalonia. You know, so that, that’s kind of, but we. We were advancing our knowledge through research. We were making it available, you know, to stop this wave of arrests that really started in 2010.

And, and we were kind of responding, you know, to the, to the the community. Then at some point, kind of in 2014, we really saw that we needed to organize a conference on ayahuasca and, and bring the drug policy and ayahuasca community together. Because there, the arrests were going up, there was a lot of human rights violations.

And, and that was kind of, you know, [00:22:00] and this, that was here in Ibiza. 

Giancarlo: I remember. Yeah, that, 

Benjamin: that was a real kind of turning point for us. You know, we got, we got for the first time also people really behind us. They saw the work that we were doing you know, and, and that really helped us also. kind of expand our team and, and get experts on board in, in different areas.

You know, Constanza Sanchez got on board. She’s a expert in international policy, UN, you know, law. You know, so kind of all of, all of these things happened around that time. Yeah, that was quite an experience here in Ibiza. And then, you know, things kind of evolved. We, We ended up you know, bringing the, the conference to Rio Branco.

You know, to, it is kind of the home of the ayahuasca churches and a lot of indigenous peoples that, that was a hard conference, you know, was six days. 

Giancarlo: Which year was that? 2016. 2016. 16. 

Benjamin: Yeah. That, that, that was very very hard. Because there 

Giancarlo: was the [00:23:00] colonization yeah. And energies, 

Benjamin: you know, like, and we, like how do you bring a dialogue?

Like our goal was to bring the, the international dialogue around, you know, the globalization. to that type of more traditional context where there’s a very long history, you know, there’s about a hundred years of history for Santo Daime, you know, kind of these churches have existed since then. And then, you know, kind of to a context full of indigenous peoples, like how do you bring a dialogue there connecting, you know, about the, the globalization.

And so it was, there was a lot of kind of conflict coming up and, and tension. And, you know, we, we navigated the way we, we could, and I definitely learned a lot. It was a, maybe until that, the, the biggest learning experience. Because the locals felt 

Giancarlo: threatened, they felt like, you know, already you came 500 years ago.

Benjamin: Well, well, that’s, that’s part of it. There was also kind of conflict among communities there that came up you know, which, which [00:24:00] was difficult. And then, and then also kind of when you don’t really know, a terrain very well. You make mistakes as well, you know, it’s kind of the, the, the codes, the way you organize things, the relationships, you know, so a lot came out of it.

Let’s say, you know, it’s that, yeah, that, that was definitely an experience that made me grow and, and understand the complexity of this. It’s kind of the, you know, it’s kind of the clash between worlds, you know, in all, all of the, the tensions and how things are understood. That, that was kind of.

That beginning and from there on, like 2017 that’s when we started to build kind of deeper alliances with indigenous leaders. One organization is called UMIAC, the Union of Indigenous Yagé Medics of the Colombian Amazon. You know, and I started to learn a lot. Like really a lot, like what, what is this about for indigenous people?

You know, it’s, and I kind of got a glimpse of that in the beginning when I went with the title that gave me my first cup of, of yagé to, to his territory in [00:25:00] 2007. You know, I saw that their territories were, you know, glyphosate was sprayed just like a month before I arrived there on top of the village and for coca eradication on the Maloca.

You know, which was abandoned. And I mean, when they sprayed it, there were kids playing. You know, that just happened. Rivers with oil contamination from the extraction and violence. I met, like, children who just had lost their both parents from the violence. And, you know, I realized, and I could really start learning much more when we engaged with, with Umiag about that, that is what Yahé, Ayahuasca, and indigenous spirituality is about.

It’s about the territory in first place. You know, the protection and, and kind of the, the spiritual protection of the the territory by maintaining it aligned with the order of nature. And the territory is not something that is separate from the community or from the individuals or from the ancestry or from the knowledge [00:26:00] or from the cultural identity.

It’s all one, it’s all one integrated kind of body. And they, you know, they work to harmonize, protect, heal you know, those. their communities. That’s really what it’s about. And this 

Giancarlo: is it’s very well said. Maybe, maybe I’m going to try to repeat it because it is so important. So you’re saying that this particular tribe in Ecuador, you know, for them, the ayahuasca was like a way to integrate all these different concepts of land, territory, belonging, community, ancestry, very localized in the most harmonious way.

Benjamin: Yeah, exactly. And this is needed to be protected. That’s, you know, the kind of violence in response to violence. You know, it’s really about the spirituality. So spirituality and, and ayahuasca, yagé, and, you know, these traditional plants are the pillars, the [00:27:00] keystone medicines for indigenous spirituality.

And, and they are the, the frontline defense of the territories and the indigenous way of life. You know, and, and therefore, like the leaders in these communities are spiritual leaders. They’re not political leaders. Political leaders are accountable and work, you know, and this is in, in, in kind of communities that have maintained their way of life.

There’s a lot of communities that were so fractured that they, you know, they were moved, displaced, moved to cities, you know, and, and there was a lot lost you know, in those contexts. So they say that when. an indigenous community loses its territory when it’s displaced, it’s the loss of their identity.

Like slowly, that’s really the degeneration and the loss of the indigenous identity because it’s kind of losing, you know, the the pillar or the fundament of who you are. 

Giancarlo: Yeah, like an animal in the ecosystem. 

Benjamin: Yeah, and it’s, but it’s like, you know, the territory [00:28:00] is really where everything is rooted in, integrated in so when It’s kind of ripping your head off your body, you know, you’re not grounded like, you know, you can’t live like that.

It’s you become confused You know, and so I, we, we spend hours on zoom, you know, with the people. And for me, the beautiful thing about that relationship was that, you know, we were approached because they wanted to learn more about how to become autonomous, like an autonomous organization, getting support from the international community, you know, because as you know, like right now, most of the funding and focus is on biomedicalization of psychedelics and kind of.

plant medicine, even like ceremonial uses are kind of a bit on the side. And, and even like the criminalization of, of ceremonial practice is going up. It’s increased a lot over the last two years while biomedicalization is happening, you know, so, [00:29:00] and then kind of where is the support to, you know, the indigenous people, it’s.

You know, practically non existent in the, in the psychedelic space. So they really reached out, like, how can we do that from all of your experience with ice ears, and I had to learn it from scratch, you know, jumping in the pool, you know, so I was sharing all of that, and I’m not a big expert in fundraising, we’re a small organization, we’re always with a limited budget, you know, struggling to get the, to the end of the year, but what I learned, we were sharing, and it, you know, it was.

Helping them strengthen as an organization. We became like really close allies and they were in return really explaining what this was about and you have to imagine like you have on the other side of the of the zoom people who then have spiritual leaders being killed violence, threats, you know, extraction in their community.

Like these are people with very urgent needs. You know, it’s not like, Oh, let’s do something beautiful together. And we talk, you know, again, next, next week or next month, these are people with needs for survival. [00:30:00] And so it was really like there was this tension always between the. you know, the urgent needs and then what are we building together?

You know, so during the, during the Zoom calls, I started to learn a lot about the way they think, what Yahé is, what spirituality is, the territory, all of these things. You know, we were kind of strengthening each other by, by sharing. 

Giancarlo: But sorry, but there were, Under threat by the oil company and the chemical company extract the extraction industry 

Benjamin: the armed conflict Even though there were peace accords is ongoing Yeah, like it’s there are so many interests because they’re like living on oil and you know Minerals and all of these things the coca, you know cocaine in the industry basically with the cartels Like it’s all kind of happening in those regions, you know, so you know, then we did some, some kind of really concrete actions together.

One was going to the United Nations because we have United Nations Consolidative Status. We have the, the capability of opening the [00:31:00] door for voices to be elevated there. So we went to the human rights bodies in Geneva when Colombia, the Colombian government was being examined you know, in terms of how they were doing on human rights.

And, you know, the leaders of UMIAC were managed to get recommendations in that were adopted. But then the question is like, does the Colombian government really do anything with it or not? I think now there’s more hope that that’s possible than with the previous leadership. And then 2019 was a big moment for us because we organized our last conference.

In Girona, here in Spain. And that was really, it felt to me really like a coming together. You know, the title was a bit The Inner Search for a Better World. And our, our kind of the message we tried to convey to the audience was that, you know, because ayahuasca is very often really thought about as like personal individual health and well being, and how I can become a better person.

You know, that’s really how people approach it, very, you know, and how it got famous. And it was like, [00:32:00] okay, but this is also about community. It’s about, like, person, community and territory and, you know, and the environment. And so we invited people who are, you know, working in Amazon defense and, you know, community.

All kinds of people that came together and so much came out and it felt a bit like we are coming together as one very diverse community, but really for the same purpose and that is collective. It’s not just like me. And, you know, we had, we had an indigenous autonomous space. We also learned from some of the things we, we didn’t do in the, in the right way in, in in Brazil.

You know, that, that really was, was important. And then right after we went finally to, you know, Colombia, we do MIAC to visit territories. And that’s when I really started to have experiences that, you know, that changed my life in ways that, you know, all of the past hadn’t gotten to. That, that was kind of the summer of 2019, things really started to change for me.

[00:33:00] And in the meantime, we had learned so much from all of the work and, you know, being involved with so many communities, you know, from drug policy, like UN, you know, government all the way down to like the grassroots and. You know, from indigenous world to the psychedelic space being in, in kind of a liminal space between worlds and learning really about all of them and the inconsistencies and then always trying, you know, and this is really embedded in the commitments of, of ice years is like challenging, you know, the, the way things are, the status quo and always start starting to think, you know, ahead of the curve and, and foresee when challenges can become harm.

And how to it’s kind of a collective mid wiving, you know. One of the other things I really start seeing is that it’s not so much about the substance, it’s about the relationships, you know. The plans and the process of globalization brings worlds together and it’s about weaving a tapestry of knowledge and collective [00:34:00] impact.

And that’s really what I feel we’ve been kind of mid wiving. I have to, I have to add also one thing I haven’t mentioned that One of the you know, through the legal defense and seeing the things that were going wrong you know, about six years ago, you know, this actually started here in Ibiza. You were in the, in the In the conversation, we started to think about how can we more proactively, you know, engage or seed processes where the community comes together builds trust, builds alliance, holds each other accountable, learn from each other’s mistakes, from each other’s knowledge.

And kind of build a path of, of self regulation. That was a Dandelion project. Yeah, exactly. This is what Hieronimo Masarasa was also here in Ibiza has been leading. And this has been really about, it’s kind of a bit of a pollinator process, you know, engaging with the community, the, you know, and, and [00:35:00] kind of, they start to see the value of why we need to get together, because these are stigmatized communities.

And because they’re stigmatized, They can’t really come together openly, they can’t really learn, you know, it’s when like cultural practices are new and we don’t really know well how to hold them. If you then keep people isolated, there’s no learning process and actually kind of a natural way of learning how to, you know, constructively integrate them.

And so we started to see these type of processes and accompany people and that’s really has been a bit of a movement that’s, that’s building. And we kind of, and we learned, we asked some of the you know, Hiroma did interviews with some of these other movements like the Chinese medicine practitioners in California.

well recognized if this is not properly handled, it’s dangerous. But there’s a great potential, you know, people should have the right to, you know practice. And then let’s, and what if we come together and we self regulate, [00:36:00] we, we decide on what ethics we uphold on how, you know, what are kind of our, our minimum safety standards and.

And so we learn and we ask those collective, what would you do differently if you would go back to the beginning? So we learn from their mistakes as well. And then, you know, there’s been this weaving of, of a web of kind of like a hybrid community as Bill Melton, the American changemaker says. Local communities.

You know, they’re rooted in local community because every culture and local context is different. You know, they come together, they, they kind of get on the same page with all of their respecting diversity because ayahuasca is very diverse practices and plant medicine in general. And they, they start working together towards kind of a common, a common vision for the future, collective strategies.

And then. kind of rooted in those organized communities, you start to implement more like harm reduction strategies [00:37:00] things like you know, how, how to like a support net for people who fall through and actually have problems after ceremony. You know, that’s one thing. You know, and this is what now we have a course for.

And so it’s kind of building really, instead of just kind of putting structures in place that control, it’s about really sustaining the grassroots. These are, you know, more grassroots movements, which I think are. Lacking also in the, in the current kind of psychedelics movement and there’s some of it building now, but yeah, we, we’ve been kind of working on this for six years.

Giancarlo: Yeah. Yeah. No, this is very interesting. But so do you mind expanding a little bit on you were saying that, you know, the clash of the two world and the biomedical medicalization of this plant might not be the the exact model to use this plant. Can you elaborate a little bit on that? 

Benjamin: Yeah, it’s, you know, this is going into the weeds a bit of, of kind of you know, the, the indigenous world views and, and how these systems work.[00:38:00] 

Giancarlo: Yeah, but those are interesting, those weeds. 

Benjamin: Yeah, yeah, yeah. These are interesting ones. 

Giancarlo: Because just to say, you know, like, you know, Mango TV listener, they know a little bit more about this plant. But the common people, if you ask billions of people, the only thing they know about psychedelic is that you’re gonna be able to be covered by the insurance.

You’re gonna be able to do it in a clinical setting. They don’t know anything else. Yeah, so it’s important. And 

Benjamin: you know, don’t get me wrong. You know, this is not about, like criticizing the psychedelic biomedicalization, because, you know, I think if it’s properly implemented, and there’s still a way to go, but there’s kind of good people really thinking and figuring out how to do that it’s gonna alleviate suffering of many, many people.

But, you know, calling it a revolution of mental health that’s not what it is to me. It is a revolution in psychiatry, maybe, because psychiatry hasn’t had, you know, any, you know, new medications and [00:39:00] approaches for the last 50 years. So I mean, it’s definitely a disruption of the psychiatric space and it is gonna alleviate the suffering of many people, you know, so that, that’s fantastic.

And that’s really important at these times when the meaning of life is kind of collapsing, you know, as we have all of these crises. And, and our, even the future of life is uncertain to us, you know, there’s a lot of fear and people are lost and suffering. So that’s really now coming in place in this moment.

But the revolution in mental health really lies in how we understand health. And I’ve seen in the indigenous world a completely different understanding of health and life itself. And so still biomedicalization is very much in the sphere of sick care. Not in the realm of health care you know, first of all, it understands health as an individual issue.

And even like your mind is [00:40:00] separate from your body, you know, you go to like different specialists and doctors and, and kind of more for like mechanical, mechanical things. That’s really great. You know, like open heart surgery. Incredible. Like there’s an incredible sophistication in the allopathic medicine.

But kind of for chronic diseases, for mental health. diseases. It’s all symptom reduction, and we know that. That’s why we are looking for root cause healing. But I don’t believe that psychedelics in that context can cause root cause healing. They can definitely peel off layers. And, you know, and give people freedom and, but there’s a limitation to that.

And that’s because of the very underlying assumptions of the field. It thinks of symptoms as bad, as something wrong. There is something broken in you, there’s something wrong. Your life is going wrong and we need to fix you and there are substances that are going to help you fix what you have, you know That [00:41:00] that’s the there’s a framing that you know, and and that’s that’s not at all the way, you know Healing works in in the indigenous world and you know the the way first of all the systems there are based on ontologies of on worldviews where As I said, the individual, the community, and the territory, and the world are one.

They have, they, they come, there are different materializations of the same underlying, let’s call it energetic or spiritual architecture. You know, that, and, and so, those systems are focused on that underlying energetic and spiritual architecture. And if you don’t see Those layers, it’s impossible to diagnose what’s going on, you know, so we start to make sense of symptoms But that we look we do it through a lens that is incredible blinds, you know blinders around it You know, we only see [00:42:00] matter you know, and am I in, and I’m kind of over oversimplifying a bit now, but because we also think about transgen generational trauma and epigenetics and all of that noise is really incredible.

But, you know, it’s a, it’s still very kind of in the physical space. You know, you have kind of these things in your body and. And, and so we, we try to do a diagnostics only of a very partial view of the whole you know, kind of dimension of who you are. 

Giancarlo: Yeah, yeah. It’s not in a holistic system.

It’s very specific about depression, PTSD, it’s not integral. It’s not integral. 

Benjamin: You are one, then there’s a community, there’s a, you know, there’s the environment and We have a ministry of public or mental or health, you know, and then you have mental health in there. We have a ministry of environment somewhere else.

Other funders, other organizations trying to diagnose and figure out what to do about it. There’s then public health completely separate. That doing business peoples is a complete fracture of our understanding of health and [00:43:00] life. You know, so it’s the, it’s the way the systems are designed. That’s what we have to look at.

And, you know, these are fractured systems, so they are actually a reflection, and the world is a reflection of our fractured ontology, our fracture understanding of the world, of life, and of health. And so you know, I really started to learn. way more about these systems when I start working with you know, in, in the Shipibo, with Shipibo healing.

You know, first only with ayahuasca and then dietas, and then with other systems and, you know, spiritual leaders. And, you know, kind of in, in, in those systems you know, Shipibo system is very much of a surgery. system, you know, I call it this kind of energetic surgery. And, and the, the fascinating thing is that the the healers are not actually doing the surgery.

They’re just conduits for the master plans that they have dieted, that they are in relationship with, in a collaborative relationship. It’s like a medical team. You have [00:44:00] your anesthesiologist, you have your, you know, nurse, your specialist. They’re kind of all together there. But these are plants, and kind of plant spirits, you know, as they say.

Working together with the healer, you know, guiding on diagnosing, seeing what’s going on and then working you know, through them. And then in kind of the diet as establishing a direct relationship to the, you know, the patient you know, to, to heal and teach. So when I started to embark on that journey, that completely shifted my life.

You know, and so the, what they say or see is that we have an energetic body and, and I’m, you know, I’m not an expert, I’m not a trained healer or anything. I just can Speak from my own experience and going through this, but we have an energetic body and that is kind of built of our ideas of our views of ourselves, of who we are, our fears, our judgments, kind of all of these negative [00:45:00] emotions and, and, and thoughts.

And, you know, we, we kind of. Integrate them in who we are, and that actually fractures us. So when something really traumatic happens to you you know, and you, you kind of can’t give that a meaning. This was not supposed to happen. It hurt, and there’s something wrong. You know, when you think that, or you think there’s something wrong with you, you automatically think there’s something wrong with life.

You know, because that, that’s just, you know, you can’t separate both, you know, something that happened to me in life that was not supposed to happen. So life is wrong. Life is not the way it’s supposed to be. So when that happened, you start to kind of fracture pieces of your ontology, which becomes less holistic.

It becomes less integral. You kind of isolate more and more. And you, you know, you have these ideas about yourself. And so these are really at the core of your energetic body. These are kind of like, [00:46:00] blockages, energetic blockages in your energetic body, they, they kind of root, in the beginning it’s a fear of wrong.

It’s like, oh no, there’s, is there something wrong about my life, oh no, this happened, and it becomes like a deep knowing of wrong. You know, life is wrong, this is not supposed to be, I can’t trust life, I can’t embrace life, I’m afraid of it. You know, I feel threatened you become isolated more and more isolated from, you know, the Yeah.

The, the world from, from life itself. No. Yeah. Yeah. 

Giancarlo: Gab Gabbo calls them spiritual injury. Exactly. Like spiritual injury, neur neurological injury. Yeah. That usually is, as for gab is associated to the loss of authenticity. Mm-hmm . And internalizing of unworthiness. So it’s like a little intri in your, in your neurology.

Benjamin: And so there’s kind of, that really becomes, starts growing as a seed and rooting in your energetic body. And then if you don’t take those seeds out they root very strongly and they grow and they become physical, no? [00:47:00] Like so 

Giancarlo: Like, like, like, like what happened with the cartilage. Like, you know, I twist, I twist my ankle and you know what?

So the body build this hard cartilage around it to like protect it. And I feel that this spiritual injury, then they grow because subconsciously they put you in situation that reinforce that belief. So you go into the destructive relationship and you’re, you end up recreating that injury. Yeah. It’s fascinating.

It’s very well said. Yeah. 

Benjamin: So, If you’re not enough, but you know, these are all kind of with like with trauma, you know, the event, you know, it’s kind of pretty clear where injury happens sometimes, but, but, you know, often it’s kind of very unconscious. And yeah, it’s like, disempowering views that come because we, you know, think something that happened in our life was not supposed to be.

And so there’s something wrong with me. 

Giancarlo: Yeah. Yeah. Also, when, when your [00:48:00] parents get distracted, rather than just saying, oh, they were busy, you think they don’t love me. Yeah. I’m not lovable. 

Benjamin: Exactly. Well, and, and so I discovered that, you know, actually I started at ICERES, I mean, this whole path, because I would, I convinced myself 20 years before that I was a fuck up.

You know, and, and so this whole road was a road of compensation. You know, it’s like if I, if I’m actually a fuck up, I’m gonna then show that I’m not a fuck up because I don’t, I can’t believe, because I don’t want to accept that, you know, there’s something wrong about life. I want to trust it, but actually deep down you don’t.

You know, so kind of what the, the healers do is that the symptoms actually are, are pointing to what’s going on underneath and what needs to be, what the injuries in your ontology, the fractures in your ontology. And then, and there’s tap roots, but now the, the, the fascinating thing to me is that they are [00:49:00] all kind of connected to the tap roots that go back in our ancestry.

So very often explaining, this is what, what I’ve learned, explaining what happens to someone only looking at the current life versus like our life and then our parents life and our grandparents life, and then all the way back you know, in our bloodline. If you don’t take into account that perspective, you might not be able to explain at all why somebody is depressed or why somebody is struggling.

So, so I think there’s, there’s an issue also with this focus on looking at other must be a trauma in your life because you know, the, I mean, there’s always disempowering views and things that happen, which are different. You didn’t fully integrate and in your life, but the way you, what do you tell yourself?

about what happened in your life, already is pre determined, kind of, by the lens you see life through. And that lens comes from the ancestral imprint [00:50:00] in your energetic body. And so when, when a child is born, it carries, you know, parts of the imprint. It kind of sustains unresolved issues from the, the ancestry in their imprint.

And as they grow, it becomes stronger. And that’s why sometimes, you know, things have appear mental health issues, struggles, physical, you know, three generations of cancer. And then we’re kind of looking at, you know, where does all of that come from? What did you do in your life? But maybe that’s really coming from the ancestry.

And now, why is that important? Because it is what, what I’ve come to believe you know, through that, that whole experience is that it is our role, like our real job here is to. You know, take on we can’t avoid it, you know, the unresolved struggles you know, from our ancestry and make them whole again, kind of, we are born already with a fractured you know, physical, like energetic body [00:51:00] and we want to put it together because that’s the way kind of, you know, the ancestry unites and that’s how we, are weaving back together our fractured world view.

So when somebody is depressed, you can’t see, you know, where, where it’s kind of coming from, and then you’re, you’re kind of, you know, is there like a physical imbalance, and we talk about major depression, we talk about all kinds of, you know, labels of, of mental health. In those systems there’s no labels.

There are only names for kind of the types of, of energies you know, that, that kind of, in the energetic body. that are, that are causing these these life struggles. 

Giancarlo: Do you remember the name of those energies? 

Benjamin: No, I mean, there’s a, it’s a whole world. That’s a conversation to have with the traditional healers.

You know, but, but there’s no concept of labeling. And you know, kind of, I think that when you, when you label Or you are saying, you’re coming into a system that says there is something wrong with you, we need to fix you, [00:52:00] that maybe it’s not recognizing that you’re doing exactly the role that you have in life, which is working, that you’re actually doing an incredible job, it’s just such a heavy job, it’s like having 20 jobs at the same time because you are carrying all of this ancestral weight on you, and that you are trying to you know, kind of make whole again and, and let go.

So that you actually liberate the next generations from the imprint that has been passed on from, you know, the, these generations. And so you’re, you’re doing that job, at the same time you have your day job, and then maybe you have another one, and maybe you have a family, and, and then you’re like, oh, yeah, but you’re, you know, you’re depressed, and you’re not doing enough, and then, and then people even are judging you saying, You are not handling your life well.

But you know that when you see the full thing of what’s going on, maybe you’re saying, Oh my God, like, how are you managing to sustain this? And there’s kind of no recognition of, you know, there’s kind of a belief, deep belief [00:53:00] of wrong, that life goes wrong. In that system instead of that maybe, and this is one of the things that for me, I learned that was so helpful from the CPI O system.

They talk about bu so kinda a way to think about it. Say your energetic body is blockages, you know, energetic blockage because there’s, there’s fractures you know there. And so when there’s a fracture, the energy can’t flow through that materializes in your body. And so kind of the alignment, the disalignment of your energetic body now is.

materialized in your physical body. So your physical body is disaligned, there’s fractures, and so the live energy doesn’t flow well through it. And that’s what creates physical problems. But then the other thing which happens is the way you relate to the world, because your worldview, your ontology is kind of written in your energetic body, which is kind of connected to the mind, you know, it’s kind of in that realm.

Then The [00:54:00] world you create, that you’re a source of, is going to be disaligned, so you’re going to struggle. Things just don’t flow, you know, that feeling when things are really difficult and they don’t flow. So there’s a disalignment. in, inside, in your, in your body, your first territory you know, kind of, and then your physical body, and then in your family, and then in your you know, in kind of the world around you, as well as in your ancestry, you know, the big, that’s really where it comes from.

That’s the taproot. And so what then the healers do is through the, the Icaros, they’re scanning. It’s really kind of the plans, the master plans, doing it through them to find kind of these blockages. But they can only see the surface and then it kind of, it’s kind of like opening the, you know, the surface.

But you don’t know what’s inside and you don’t know where the roots are leading, but they’re leading all the way to the ancestry. So, there’s kind of a process of midwiving the healing, where you kind of go layer [00:55:00] by layer and, you know, you take out some, but not too much, because if not, it would be really unhandleable and, you know, you would get crazy.

And then when, when your energetic body gets cleared, part of it, then you realign. It’s not okay. There’s no space here. You realign and then energy flows again. After that, there’s a whole time that it takes to have your physical body realigned with your energetic body, but also your environment, the way your relationships need to realign with this new alignment.

And, and that’s done through probas, tests. You know, because if you just only have an experience, then it’s just an experience, you might have some new insights, but then, you know, people, you notice when you kind of fall back into old patterns. You know, but when, kind of, this is done in a, in a deep surgical way, and, you know, from the beginning to the end, you know, fully, there’s the alignment, there’s the protection, and then you kind of go in the world, you will, probas will [00:56:00] come up, tests will come up in life, that are gonna challenge.

The pieces that you have inside to, you know, kind of for this alignment process to evolve so that you make new decisions, you handle with them in a new way, kind of what you have learned, what your new energetic body, your, your ontology is capable of. You now kind of are, are, you know, living out in the world and it starts to change your relationship, what you have built.

So to me, this building, this process, like sometimes I look back at ice years and I, So this is the old me with the old thinking and the old understanding of life that is created at, and it’s, it doesn’t feel aligned anymore. So during the pandemic, we went through a whole realignment process. You know, I started to see, you know, new possibilities and misguided analysis of what needed to be done in my strategic thinking before.

And and, and that’s really why deep. Healing is very hard because everything starts to shift and [00:57:00] you need to hold it. You know, so, and it takes time. So I’ve gone now through like a four year process like that. And what I’ve come to understand just now a few months ago when I got to the taproot of this whole ancestral religion is that it all comes from the fear.

of wrong, and the fear of death there’s kind of the fear that life is wrong and so that we cannot trust life. And so when you have systems built, and, and what we do then is when life is wrong, when, when life, you know, we look at our past, it didn’t go the way it was supposed to be. Here we are, you know, we can’t accept what’s going on right now because it’s really, there’s so much suffering going on.

You know, then we want to change that because, you know, but we want instead. We maybe need to change our way of thinking about our ontology. It’s an ontological crisis. We’re in You know and the the judgment is really at the core of everything. I mean look at the drug [00:58:00] policy system. It judges people You know, it’s like I mean, ayahuasca people, you know, practitioners are in jail right now.

Because they think they are wrong. They are the ones that are causing the crisis that we’re in right now. And then it’s really becomes about controlling life. If you don’t trust life, because life has gone wrong, you want to control it. And that’s what very much of our, you know, our biomedical system is about, is controlling.

symptoms but that’s not healing you know, that’s, that’s controlling disease. That’s what I’m saying. It’s more like it’s in the realm of sick care instead of kind of knowing on how to sustain a process where these symptoms can be resolved, untangled is the entanglement of. You know, kind of not in our ontology, you know, these are kind of what I now see is the root off of disease, but they have a purpose.

They’re not something wrong. They have a problem. We just think they’re wrong. And that we need to, you know, control. We need to fight it. We’re in a fight with life. We’re not [00:59:00] in, in you know, we’re not in what I say, like you know, more where we say where we allow life. You know, to go through it and understand what’s going on so that we don’t resist the process.

This is the key to go overcoming the pruebas. The moment you start to fight what’s going on, that’s when the prueba grows and grows and grows until you can’t do it, you know, fight it anymore. And then there’s kind of a breakthrough and you see how you were actually fighting life and fighting yourself.

Giancarlo: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, this is super interesting. Let, let me see if I can because it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s complicated, you know, it, it has to do with the, with the how a worldview, this idea of feeling separate secular materialistic view that, that consciousness comes from the brain this. You know, materialistic view of the universe like a gigantic clock, this object subject [01:00:00] duality.

You have been explaining it’s difficult to reconcile with the indigenous view. of Ancestors healing in, you know, in, in the secular materialistic view that consciousness is created by the brain. And when the brain dies, consciousness dies. There is no connection with the ancestry. And so if our Western biomedical model is based on a secular view.

Of the universe, it might not work so well. It’s complete, it’s complicated. And, you know, you should write a little book about that. Mm-hmm . But, but so you said that in the she people worldview they don’t label this psychological knots or disturbance. They have different word for the energies.

For these different energies. Yeah. 

Benjamin: It’s not, they don’t pathologize. You know, it’s not like this is what you have a label and then there’s a manual and then these are the drugs or the [01:01:00] plants that They don’t pathologize it, but they have different words. I mean, they have definitely in their worldview, there’s definitely right and wrong and you know, the, so you know, kind of there is disease.

And then, you know, that needs to be healed. That’s part of the way they work. 

Giancarlo: But where do they think this disease comes from? Well, 

Benjamin: that’s the thing. It goes all the way back to your ancestry. How many generations down the line? I mean, all the way to the source of your bloodline. But, you know, I’ve been working with some different systems and healers.

Not only CPBO. You know, but so again, I’m talking about my experience of having gone through a family healing process where my whole family got thrown into this. You know, when you get into the ancestral roots, it, it rocks the whole system. You know, so, but, you know, we, we don’t recognize, like, I think one of the [01:02:00] things which is really problematic is that we are actually thinking that evidence is.

kind of biomedical evidence only. And then at the top of the hierarchy, and with ICERES we are doing work at the UN about this, you know, evidence based policy is only based on one type of evidence. And that is you know, in the field of health, it’s biomedical evidence. And at the top of the hierarchy, there is clinical trials.

That’s kind of really the only evidence that is taken as valid, you know, the drug development. But we, you know, when we think about indigenous knowledge, indigenous ancestral knowledge, the traditional systems, You don’t even, even recognize it as knowledge systems, you know, and sciences, evidence. It’s completely excluded.

These are cultural beliefs. You know, spirituality is [01:03:00] a, is kind of a cultural belief. That’s, that, so they are not even recognized as systems. We only have our system, and our system is only based on an understanding of a physical body. But, you know, and, and then very much of an individual physical body, not connected to our larger you know, world that we live in and engage with in communities and families, to a certain extent, you know, there’s kind of epigenetics but we don’t, we don’t see a an energetic body, so we think it’s kind of belief, and our diagnoses are only based on that, you know.

That’s, I think, where, and so, you have this system, these systems that understand the health in a, in a very integral way from the ancestry, you know, energetic body, there’s, you know, conversation there with, you know, spiritual leaders or healers. But it’s a very complex system, and we want to be a [01:04:00] movement of healing, but we don’t even recognize these healing systems.

And ancestral knowledge is really, it holds the memory of who we are, of life itself, because of an ongoing deep relationship with life that is established through an alliance with plans, with master plans or otherwise. You know, so for me, you know, there’s a really an understanding of healing in those systems.

That, that goes far beyond like symptom reduction. It’s really understanding the systems and then looking at where are they coming from, the deeper layers of, of life. Understanding, you know, why they are happening. And then kind of, you know, pull it, kind of weaving things back together. So they become whole again.

Giancarlo: And in that model, the environment and the community plays a key role. 

Benjamin: Well, in the territory, because, yeah, that’s why, you know, the CPU have lost a lot of this connection to [01:05:00] territory, because they were very impacted by colonialism. You know, in Colombia, there’s a lot of, that is really you know, the territory is what holds the knowledge.

And so it’s all about keeping the territory whole, but, and so the ontology needs to be that we are, we are, you know, that is our body. Our territory is our body, literally, you know, it’s just manifested and experienced in different layers. But the territory is the, is the frame for the community. Yeah, it’s it’s the body but but you know, it’s it’s not just we live on top of it.

Yeah, it’s who we are It’s who we are but but then there’s layers to it. So yeah, they’re inseparable Yeah. And the fact that they are separated, that in itself is a, is a, a symptom, a fracture. Yeah. And then, okay, why, why did that happen? Yeah. You know? Yeah. And, and then that goes back to ancestry and, and so forth.

No, and, and, and kind of forces of life. [01:06:00] So that’s why, you know, and, and I think this brings us to like the current moment of what is really happening in the psychedelic space and what do we need to be really mindful of. Is very much that we are not a harming movement, you know, that we actually don’t make the problem worse.

Because now, you know, the, the, as I said, ayahuasca, for example, is the pillar of indigenous spirituality and the defense of the territory. So when we start, you know, manipulating that, when we say, okay, we want that because we need it and we’re going to now drug develop it. We’re going to biomedicalize it, we’re going to commercialize it, and now it’s going to be all over the news.

This is the great psychedelic drug. You know, and then that comes back to the communities and then, you know, the, the young, the young people who are, you know, were told by the elders that, you know, this is a sentient living being you need to learn how to be in right relationship [01:07:00] with. There’s cultural codes on how to do that.

It’s a long life path of sacrifice to be a servant. And then there’s kind of this whole other. idea coming, coming back. It completely, it can, you know, we can be having unintended consequences of major scale of if we don’t behave as a, you know, as a, as a community, as a psychedelic community, on the communities, and that would be the, the end.

thesis of, like, what this, what this is about. It’s about a healing movement, a movement, you know, for life, at least that’s what it is to me. So we cannot, there’s this concept of action sin daño, do no harm, and right relationship. And I think this brings me back to my change in when I started was Wow, these substances have this great potential, and I still think that you know, and the plants have great potential.

But it’s really about right relationship. How can we [01:08:00] be in right relationship with ourselves, with our communities, with our territories, with the other? And with these plans, and that is really what this globalization is about to me. And it’s, it’s really, you know, when this encounter of these different worlds creates tensions, that’s where we need to pay the attention and say, okay, wait, wait, wait.

And there’s several conflicts around this, you know, with the Decrim movement in, in the U. S. and you know, there’s, there’s companies now announcing their drug developing you know, plans. That’s when, you know, the right thing to do is say, whoa, whoa, whoa. Okay. Okay, we, we think we need this and we’re going to make this available to millions of people.

Let’s wait for a moment. What would be the intended consequence of doing that? If this is about traditional plans, we have to do prior free and informed consent. Because we are potentially endangering the survival of the very people understand healing and life at the deep way Because of what [01:09:00] I just shared, you know, these are healing systems that understand life Why 

Giancarlo: are they endangered if we replicate them in the lab for the West?

Benjamin: You know, this is what I’m saying, like, you know, imagine you know, your grandfather has told you since you were young, you know, there’s this in, there’s, these are, we have these allies that are part of our territory, of our cultural identity, of our, Ancestral knowledge given to us by our territory and there’s a way to be in a right relationship to that.

You have to do dietas, you have to restrict, you know, sexual activity, certain foods, you, you know, you need to be in isolation for a long time. You know, this is the way you need to, you know, heal yourself, blah, blah. This is what you need to do. To be in relationship to this living being which is an ally and a pillar of our way of life.

And you’re learning that, you know, for generations. You know, that’s been the teachings, the oral traditions. This is how, how you are in [01:10:00] relationship. And then these, these these big news, you know, people listen to them because our media arrives there and, you know, and, and, and then it’s like, Hey, but wait a minute, my, you know, my grandfather said this, but they’re saying this is psychedelic substance, you can give it in the, in, in a hospital, just it’s, it’s a substance, it’s not a life, you know, and so it’s endangering the fact that it.

And that’s one layer of it. There’s a, you know, in the, in the, the way indigenous people see there’s a spiritual layer to it as well, where there’s a disruption of, of these, these systems. And, and that’s just one. Then there’s the the ecological impact. You know, if we’re going to extract, this, this might turn into a, another extractive industry.

No free, no free private informed consent. You know, so, this is really, I think, like, where for me, doing this work, you know, getting really, working deeply, you know, through my own healing and my family healing and learning, with, with these, in these different [01:11:00] systems, you know, that is really what I’ve come to see.

And at some point, I was like, okay, I want to We, it needs to become our priority to make sure that indigenous peoples and communities have what they need to have their territories protected and repaired and to thrive as a culture because only then, only that is a, is kind of you know, The start of a new, of right relationship and, and that’s when we can say, okay, we, we are somewhat lost you know, we’re in this crisis.

We don’t know what to do. Technology doesn’t seem to get out of it. Can, you know, Can you help us lead this, you know, tell us what to do? Yeah, like what are you seeing, you know, but this is not what we’re doing at the same, you know, in the meantime, we’re You know extracting things from there, you know, they’re under threat of extermination many of these these cultures and Luckily, this is now it seems [01:12:00] that it’s starting to shift a little with Lula in, in Brazil in Con in in Columbia, there’s some hope with Petro there was an Arco woman.

Now, part of the un, you know, the, these are the type of leadership positions that spiritual leaders or, or rep, you know, representatives for them can, can hold and but you know, we are, we are not asking. What should we do? We’re gonna say, we’re gonna do this. Are you on board or not? And if you don’t, we’re gonna look for the next one.

That’s kind of very much, because we just think we have everything, that our, you know, mind and our intelligence really understands things. And this has been the biggest gift of this 20 year journey for me, was these moments where you look back and like, fuck, what an idiot. You know, I didn’t, I thought I understood everything.

I was certain. And actually, now I understand that I didn’t have an idea because I couldn’t see the deeper layers of our body, you know. And one of the [01:13:00] peoples that has really fascinated me, you know, I have a relationship, I’ve started a few years ago with a spiritual leader, a mama from the Sierra Nevada, from the Arhuaco people.

They’re like the Chinese medicine practitioners. of the world. They see one life, and the body is the mother, is mother earth, and, and, you know, it’s, there’s an order to it, which is written in nature and because we think there’s something wrong about life you know, in, in essence. We can trust, we have taken over control, you know, we think we know better and we’ve started to build things and, you know, the development you know, what they’re saying is the development has to be the development of the thought to, to always, you know, know how to sustain life.

Because life evolves, so your thought needs to develop. That’s development. It’s not kind of building more and more, you know, stuff on top that, that [01:14:00] you know, creates a disbalance in the order of life. And so, you know, their science is really You know, tapping into the consciousness of the Big Mother, kind of the universal mind.

The great mind, 

Giancarlo: yeah. 

Benjamin: And, and, you know, and then getting so that their mind becomes an embodiment of that. It’s, it’s embodied knowledge. This is also the other key piece that I’ve learned. We think of knowledge as something you can get by reading or Acquire, yeah. Acquire. This is intellectual knowledge. But ancestral knowledge, or they say, sabiduria ancestral ancestral wisdom, traditional knowledge, is embodied knowledge.

And it’s really embodying, you know, the, the, kind of the, the information of life itself through plants, through relationship to animals, to relationship with territories or with the world as a whole. So, so that what is guiding you is life itself, not [01:15:00] your mind that thinks it knows better. So it’s kind of, again, the fracture between our mind and the, and the big mind, you know, makes it that we are you know, doing stuff that just this, this, you know, creates this balance.

You know, when they are talking about you know, what needs to be done, you know, mama told me the draughts come from the fact that we are taking water and that every, every element, every animal, everything on this world is a point of origin. These are kind of energetic point. Let’s say Chinese medicine, there’s energetic points and meridians and everything is energetically connected.

So they understand all of these connections and so there’s points, origin points. And when you take and it’s kind of like every, everything that exists is kind of like a, a big mother and father. Or like a, you know, a dimension that, that kind of creates the creator. And we are taking and taking and taking.

The, the company that’s putting [01:16:00] it in bottles. Is being paid, but there’s no spiritual payment, no reciprocity with the mother and father of the water or whatever, you know, the origin point, there’s no spiritual payments. And, and so at some point it, it disbalances everything so that then, you know, it dries up and then there’s droughts and the, the whole, so even when we talk about like climate change, they’re seeing a layer of it, which is very clear.

It’s not like, you know, it’s like, okay, we need to do this. We need to go to this point. We need to do that. We need to restore this part of our ecosystem of the Sierra Nevada, of the Linea Negra, which is the energetic points that are connected with the whole world. It’s like they’re very clear what needs to happen, but nobody is saying okay, we’re dealing with a climate crisis.

You know, Let’s sit together and you know, tell us what you’re seeing and what are and this is the problem this is the [01:17:00] the hegemony the Knowledge do we have the knowledge and these are all beliefs that just don’t make sense because 

Giancarlo: yeah there was the Western science doesn’t believe in this energetic point and 

Benjamin: It’s the fracture between spirituality and science and indigenous spirituality is life science.

Yeah. 

Giancarlo: Period. But so when, when you see the Nobel prize from physic in 2022 given to this phenomenon of the quantum entanglement right on the subatomic level, two particles at extreme distance behave in a certain way if you look at them in a certain way. So that’s proof. That there is not something like a local objective reality.

So maybe that’s a step in the right direction. Oh, 

Benjamin: totally. You know, I don’t know if you know Paul Levy in his book, The Wetiko and the Dispelling of Evil. He’s, he really got into you know, quantum physics. And he says it’s a bit like the Holy Grail of the moment, like [01:18:00] in our science. It’s, it’s you know, breaking through this more you know, the, the paradigm dualistic, dualistic paradigm that we had.

And it points to, you know, I think that the way kind of ancestral knowledge sees life. He, one of, one of the things that he, he says which is fascinating is the way Tico, the evil it’s a concept that came from a native American tribe. And they said it’s kind of like a mind virus. It’s the, Bailey says, evil doesn’t exist.

It only exists in the mind, and then, but obviously, our life is a big paradox. So, because it exists in the mind, we are the source of it. And I asked the mama at some point, like, what is the source of life for you? And he said, our thought. You know, so, kind of, when we, you know, this brings back to the probas.

What if everything that happens in the world is you know, that is difficult and [01:19:00] that we feel should not happen is a proba you know, it’s, it’s a test you know, that is a catalyst for change, for, for the evolution of life, that it’s all part of the evolution of life. The more you kind of resist.

The more you see this as evil, they’re attacking me. The more you might become a source of attack and evil and, and may we’re kind of stuck in a, in this you know, loop in, in the mind. Yeah. But so the healing is in a way, in a mind, but not in the type of mind that we think of in our system of, of mental health.

But it’s the entanglement of everything, you know, the, the fact that everything is integrated, our ontology, you know, the way we see ourself is exactly the same as the way we see the other and the world you know, the moment that you tell yourself there’s something wrong about me, you actually say, well, and so that means there is something wrong about life.

And then you start looking for who’s [01:20:00] responsible and what you need to fix and change. It is not separate, you know, but in our healing systems, our medicine systems, they are all separated. So what, you know, over this last year we came together with, you know, there’s with UMIAC you know, River Styx, Dr.

Browner, the different indigenous organizations, the Indigenous Paleo Conservation Initiative. Kind of all, out of all of these relationships, there was the need during the pandemic that came up and these were some spiritual leaders that really asked for this to set up the fund, an indigenous led fund to, and be established that you know, so that the philanthropy that, that kind of the psychedelic space, Would you know, engage in, in support to get behind the process of indigenous people not in the classical philanthropy way where it’s like indigenous peoples are beneficiaries of support.

No, they’re actually sitting on the table. They’re deciding, and the processes are led [01:21:00] from the, they come from the territories and the communities, not, not kind of from outside. And so this is, we’ve been setting this up you know, in this, over this last year. And I’m serving also the, currently as the interim co director until there’s indigenous direction.

But it’s indigenous led, we have indigenous leaders you know, in the decision making positions, I’m kind of a, more of a facilitator but that’s something that gives me great hope, you know, this is like, really, if, if we all get that our priority is with all of the capital is being generated in the psychedelic space, you know, like imagine that there’s a large capital going into these communities, but in a good way we are, You know, Saying, you know, this is for the repair of your nations, for, you know restorative justice.

for bioculture conservation on your terms, the way you see is needed led by a spiritual leaders, you know, and we don’t want anything in return for it. We do it because we know this is what we need to do if we [01:22:00] are a healing movement. What is going to come out of, out of that is Is really, you know, that is for me really the revolution in mental health that we’re looking for.

Because that is what’s gonna allow for right relationship. So it’s a vehicle for right relationships. It’s more than, you know, funneling, funding from one side to the other. But it’s, it’s kind of then, you know, it’s really you know, opening people’s minds as well. To some of, you know, the, the perspectives that we need to have if we really want to be a healing movement.

And, you know, facilitating right relationship, but under the indigenous leadership, so it’s a, it’s a bit, there’s no kind of, it seems like there’s a movement starting in philanthropy of indigenous led funds. This is what we’re figuring out you know, and that’s, that’s fascinating. But that, but that’s really, and then how do we behave in right relationship for, for the industry?

You know, what is that going to look like? That’s something to figure out now, not, not when it’s all, all done. So that, [01:23:00] that’s very much of my focus right now. A lot of my time goes, goes to that as well and hoping we can fully establish over the next year. 

Giancarlo: Amazing. Amazing. No, I totally understand the importance of that.

It’s like the FDA should You know, when, when, when, when it gives license to for a substance with a cultural background to become a medicine, like a certain percentage of the profit should go back to, to you know, as a cultural restoration. 

Benjamin: Yeah. And then, you know, like we want, so this is the right relationship means informed consent with everything that has to do with their medicines.

You know, but then also, like, for example, psilocybin was, you know, this is already, what is it, 60 years ago that this was kind of extracted out of the communities in Mexico. Now it’s a multi billion dollar industry or, you know, already it’s kind of happening. You know, so kind of that extraction happened 60 years ago.

So then it’s like, okay, but we’re going to do [01:24:00] benefit sharing, you know, because that, that happened without any informed consent that we are now are going to benefit economically about it. Like we cannot, you know, say what, you know, like these people are, are poor, their community, they’re still, their territory is invaded, like that cannot happen if we don’t deal with that, if, if that’s not our priority.

Then, like, how can we say we’re a healing movement? Well, a healing movement for some people, you know. Yeah, for a specific symptom. That’s for, and yeah, and that’s, that’s colonialism is fully in action. You know, so we’re kind of working to make people aware. And, and, but also like there’s many people, I think, who say, okay, we want to, you know, engage and do benefit sharing, do reparation, but how do we do that in a way that doesn’t further disrupt?

No. So this is kind of the infrastructure that we are building to allow for that to happen. And in the process, then the relationships are going to be established [01:25:00] are, you know, it’s what I think is going to lead us to the next milestone in the psychedelic Renaissance, which is understanding that maybe it’s not.

The renaissance of psychedelics, but really the renaissance of our way of life. And that only can come when we truly come together for our knowledges to come together. And where ancestral knowledge leads technology and modern kind of knowledge. Because that’s really how it becomes rooted in, in life, in the order of life instead of disrupting it.

You know, that’s really what I see You know, it’s the next, like we, we cannot say our, this milestone is our end point. We’re done it, you know, let’s now think always about what’s the next substance we’re going to drug develop. No, we need to think about. What is really what we have signed up for. 

Giancarlo: Yeah.

Amazing. Amazing. Thank you so much. You know, the one thing that comes to mind is recently there was have you, are you familiar with the Harvard Wellbeing Experiment? It’s the longest experiment on happiness. It started in 1938. [01:26:00] And now there’s like, this is the fourth generation of Harvard doctor that’s been following this.

At the beginning there were like 400 people. Now there’s becoming 3000 with all the son and grandson and, and now the fourth generation doctor who’s following this study has been on both some Harry’s and Chris Williamson podcast. And at the end out of a hundred years also more study. The one thing that has consistently been associated with happiness is the quality of your relationship is, you know, to what extent you are, Are connected with other.

Yeah. And so, I mean, we know that we know that these indigenous understanding of the territory and community has been part of who we are, has been eroded. But then the you know, radical individualism. Yeah. Where, you know, you go through life with the guard up and, and, and [01:27:00] always scared that, you know, living in a, you know, with a fear of, of, of scarcity.

Yeah. 

Benjamin: You know, this is also you know, maybe like in terms of risk factors for people who are going to have a psychedelic experience. Those who are very disintegrated from social relations and give the highest risk. Chance to, you know, afterwards be in a, in a very difficult place and don’t know what to do.

Yeah, and you know, I think it’s totally right. I would, I would add, you know, this from kind of a more, what I’ve learned, it’s about relationship with others, but it’s really also about the relationship with the territory and, and life itself. Because happiness, that’s what the way I understand it.

It’s not about being in the state of bliss the whole time. It’s about no matter what happens, to always you know, be able to find meaning in, in life. That, that it’s not what was not supposed to happen. And then start [01:28:00] fighting it and, and, you know, and, and judge life and yourself and others and so forth.

Know that you Can deal with it in a way which it doesn’t break down the meaning of life. You know, and, and that’s, that’s I think what really happiness is about. It’s about navigating, you know, life. It’s holding life sacred no matter what happens. And that’s very difficult to do, you know, if you suffer.

I can only imagine, you know, some of the suffering that’s, that’s going on right now. Yeah. Amazing. 

Giancarlo: Amazing. Amazing. We’ve been a bit longer than usual, but this, this has been a very, very interesting and very important conversation. Yeah. And so for people that want to help you, I mean, I’m sure many people would resonate in trying to help the indigenous tribe that brought this knowledge.

That, you know, we’re not recognizing. So, you mentioned, okay, first of all, if people wants to help, what should they do? First, ICE ears? 

Benjamin: Well, like if you [01:29:00] want to, you know, help indigenous people get what they, they need, you know, it’s the IMC Fund, the Indigenous Medicine Conservation Fund, is, you know, where it’s happening.

And, you know, we are We are investing our time and collaboration. This was really built on, you know, years of relationship building. What’s the website of that? It’s imc. fund so people can go there and then you know, I Series has been an organization engaging with the challenges of this globalization and wanting to move forward.

It’s very much of service of the, the community of plant medicine, trying to self, self regulate, change policies, work at the UN. That’s kind of the type of organization that I Series is. It’s, you know, it’s really Trying to be in this place in between all of these systems and kind of, you know, make sense of them and, and look at how can we move forward in a, in a good way.

You know, we, we need support for that work. ICRS. org is our website. So that, that’s kind of how [01:30:00] people can support our, our work at ICRS as well. 

Giancarlo: Amazing. Thank you so much, Benjamin. You know, I, I know you for so many years now. I must admit, I’m really impressed by your constant evolution and your deep interest in understanding, you know, this culture and this medicine.

And it seems that, you know, you really have now put the finger on something really important, which can be. You know, really life changing in, in, in, in understanding our reality and our space in it. You know? So thank you. And we’d love to invite you another time to, to come and come and confess, confess with us your psychedelic experience.

Hopefully we’re gonna do that soon. Thank you very much. Thank you so much.[01:31:00] 

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