19: Bruce Parry on Regeneration, Egalitarianism, and his Catalysts for Awakening

For further details about Bruce & his projects:
Bruce Parry.com
Tawai.earth
Instagram

For further research on those, and topics mentioned:
Tawai: Voice From The Forest
BBC
Gilli Islands
Iboga
Bobogno
Gabon
Bruce YouTube Clip
Bwiti
Kogi
Heart of The World
Aztecs
Incas
Aluna
Ayahuasca
Aubrey Marcus
Marina Abramovic
Penan
Banjeli
Congo nomadic tribes
Tamera
Damanhur
Pachamama
Tribe on BBC
Sex at Dawn
Civilized to Death
The Hunter Gatherer’s Guide to the 21st Century
Dawn of Everything 

Giancarlo Canavesio: [00:00:00] Hello, hi, welcome to this new episode of the Mango TV podcast today we have my dear friend and mentor in some way, Bruce Perry. Um, you heard about him from our documentary, Tawai, the voice of the forest. I quickly, as usual, read a brief biography. Bruce is best known for his award winning documentaries, which followed him living with and learning from remote indigenous peoples around the world.

Other series followed him visiting people [00:01:00] struggling with the effects of globalization and climate change, and the part we all play in these events. These experiences led him to leave the BBC and direct a feature documentary about humankind’s loss of connection to nature and the effect this is having globally.

He has been deeply affected by his travels and is now trying to put into practice some of the lessons he learned over the years, especially influenced by the few remaining egalitarian tribes. He has been lucky to meet. He currently lives in Wales. Hello, Bruce, 

Bruce Parry: welcome. Ah, Giancarlo, so nice to see you again.

It’s been too long, my friend. 

Giancarlo Canavesio: So, um, as you guys know, Mango TV is interested in, um, his initial interest was in psychedelic medicine and science, and then from that, uh, we are exploring the theme of regeneration, and Bruce is an expert on that. Um He will talk about not only his experience with the, with the, with the BBC, but also [00:02:00] um, his vision on, on, on what kind of community we should build to live harmoniously together.

And this is a huge topic today, obviously. So Bruce, why don’t we start with, um, with the pivotal point where you decided to leave the BBC and go in a different direction. Can you elaborate on that and, you know, tell us about your feelings if you can about, 

Bruce Parry: in that period. Oh, straight to the heart of it, Giancarlo, thanks mate, yeah, why not, why not, wow.

Yeah, why did I leave the BBC? I sometimes, I sometimes ask myself that question. It’s like, you know, it was a gig, it was a gravy train, I had a meal ticket for life, I was at the top of my game, I’d just been winning BAFTAs and, um, the shows were doing very well. But I guess the real heart of it was that, uh, what I had seen on my journeys made me wake up and realize that I couldn’t just carry on making Films, even [00:03:00] though I was really proud of those films, uh, even though they, um, you know, I slept well at night and they were great information for everyone, um, and it was all compelling stuff, I realized that, you know, I’d just been sent around the world to look at globalization and climate change and I felt this, like, tidal wave coming towards us.

And, and that ultimately was so overpowering to me that I couldn’t just then go and do the next thing about, like, you know, water in China, and whatever the next project they wanted me to talk about was. It’s like, whoa, whoa, whoa, like, you know, I can’t Yes, that’s important, too, but look at this thing that’s coming.

Look at this thing that you’ve just sent me around the world to look at. And it was so compelling to me. And, and also, what was really disheartening was that I was coming back, having, you know, my last trip was, uh, the sort of Arctic series, which was the one where I was looking specifically at climate [00:04:00] change.

And then coming back to a nation that was still debating whether it was real or not, and all of that stuff. And so I’m like, look, this is, this has to be my, my journey now. This, this has to be it. Um, and also that what was really beautiful for me in my sort of career with the BBC was that not only did I see the problems with globalization, going down the Amazon, looking at oil and slavery and logging and sawyer and cattle and all those things.

That’s what I looked at. So it’s like our impact on the planet through the way of life that we live. And then going around the Arctic looking at climate change like this is real and it affects us all and it’s coming. But then I also had this amazing. which was that I’d also spent five or six years going to visit tribal people.

And it’s like, wow, so not only have I seen the problems, but I’ve also seen potential solutions. And so that whole package for me was like, right, well, I can’t just go off and carry on making TV shows about other things. I now have this amazing package that [00:05:00] I could sort of like Try and share some of the deeper wisdom that I’d learned from tribal people because it, in some ways, answered some of these problems that were coming our way.

And the BBC weren’t interested in me necessarily doing that, so I’m like, OK, I’ll leave you guys. I’m going to go and do it myself. But so 

Giancarlo Canavesio: when you mentioned that, you know, there was an awakening, you know, we live in Ibiza where this is a very common theme and, um, you know, are you awakening? Are you awake?

Are you asleep? Can you elaborate a little bit how, how does an awakening feels 

Bruce Parry: like? Well, I, like I’m sure many, many of your listeners, I’ve had a number. You know. It’s, it’s a process. It’s not an event. Yeah. But there have been definitely real events along the way. Okay. We want to know about those. Okay.

Well, I, you know, I started out as a Marine, you know, I started out as like a, as a boarding school in England with a very Christian family, with a military father. I was as institutionalized as you get, you know, if I, [00:06:00] my mom said to me, if you ever take a drug, I’ll call, you know, I’ll disown you. And so I was like, I was.

That was me if I’d seen someone smoking pot. I would have called the police, you know That’s the kind of guy I was and I joined the Marines. I was so into that world It was super anti drug super institutional We were what they call corpus just in love with the work love love with the Marines and that was me That was my upbringing and then I guess probably the first big smack around the face was falling madly in love with, with a woman who took me, who I, I basically was so in love with her that I was willing to explore.

An experience with her of these, this whole realm that I just called drugs, which is everything. Um, not distinguishing between any one of them. If it’s illegal, it’s bad. You know, that sort of mindset. And she said, I think you’d really like mushrooms. Um, and so I was in Gili Trawangan out in, in Indonesia and And we had an experience [00:07:00] together.

How old were you then? I was probably 27, 28. Okay. So being still in the army. So no, I left the Marines at like 23. So I’d left the Marines and then I used to lead these expeditions in Asia. So that’s what I was doing after that, so I used to lead these science and conservation trips out in Asia. So I’d been out of the marines, but I hadn’t lost the mindset, because I’d always been the leader of these expeditions, so I was still the boss, it was my way, or, you know, so I’d be meeting other people, but I wasn’t influenced by them because I was in charge, and so maintain that egoic structure of, of knowing.

thinking I knew what was what, and it was only when I fell in love and, and was invited to, to explore this thing, and, and actually it ended up being an atrocious experience. It’s like I had a massive overdose. Didn’t, nothing, I wasn’t feeling the effects. I now Do you remember how many grams? I don’t, but it was like, you know, if you go to somewhere like the Ghillies, I know that when you ask for a, a cup of mushroom tea There’s probably quite a few in there.

There’s like sludgy teas. [00:08:00] And I had about three of them. Because you didn’t feel it? I didn’t feel it at first, but I didn’t realize it at the time. I’m just a, I’m just a Marine. It just came in late. And so, when everyone was pointing and giggling and laughing, I was with a group. I was like, look, I can’t feel this.

I’m not going to pretend. It’s not happening. She goes, oh, you must just need more. So I had like another one, and then another one. Everyone else has just had like a quarter of a cup. And I went And like, I had a really, it was quite a dark experience, actually, because like, my friend didn’t know how to hold, you know, she’d learned when she was really young, and it was a formative time for them when they were really young, but she’d never dealt with someone who had been a Marine, who’d led expeditions, who’d always been in charge of super confidence, super Who had this big egoic armor.

Massive, massive egoic armor. And then the whole And she didn’t tell me the one thing that whenever I take people on the first time now, I’d make sure that Don’t worry, you’ll come back, you know, it’s just an experience. So I thought that I was going to be in this for, this is my new reality. I went into like, apoplexy and [00:09:00] was literally seeing seas of cockroaches rushing towards her and grabbing her hand and saying, come with me and wanting to protect her.

And then her going, what? And I’m like, no, no, don’t worry. And then her thinking of some axe murder and we like spiraled down. Uh, I remember walking along. It was such a strong trip. It really, really strong. It was 100 percent horror 

Giancarlo Canavesio: trip? 

Bruce Parry: No, it was. I, uh,

There were moments that were interesting, but it was mostly really difficult. But can you 

Giancarlo Canavesio: elaborate, what 

Bruce Parry: was the interesting part? So, okay, an interesting example, I remember thinking, I have to protect her. So I see this, for example, the sea of cockroaches, like out of a movie, millions, like the whole carpet coming towards her, I grab her.

And then we head off down this, uh, down the beach, but it’s got trees overhead. There’s no moonshine, and it’s dark, and it’s just the two of us. And I’m seeing pixies and elves literally everywhere, like, peeking over the, the logs at us. Um, and then we [00:10:00] walk along, and then I stop, and then suddenly, I’m in a hole, and my foot is literally ten foot long, and she’s right up there, uh, holding my hand.

But my hand, and I’m like, what am I d I mean, I don’t think I’ve ever had a mushroom trip like it since. I mean, it’s so powerful. So I’m literally in a hole. with a ten foot long arm and she’s right up there. And I’m like, how on earth did I get in here? And then I kind of closed my eyes and said, just step forward, I don’t know what else to do.

And then I was out of it. But things like that, which were, um, you know, it’s a super powerful trip. It’s a super powerful trip. And I was like trying to protect her, like, let me take you to the light. Let’s get over there to where the light is, where the moonshine is and we’ll be fine. But what it did was, it knocked me out of Christianity.

I was like, okay, whatever that was, that’s not what. So there 

Giancarlo Canavesio: was a little bit of a mystical experience? You felt a connection? I 

Bruce Parry: felt. Yeah, I felt. I mean, it’s so, so long ago now, but, uh, I [00:11:00] definitely remember coming out of that going, okay, whatever I thought the world was all about, and whatever my beliefs had been, because I was, grew up in a very Christian family, I was kind of maintained that as a, I mean, slightly rational, obviously questioning, I didn’t believe the whole thing, but ultimately believed in it.

Guy in the sky kind of stuff and I was like, okay, that’s not that’s not what’s going on here This is something very different. So it set me on my own spiritual journey opened the door to Questioning and and so that was the biggest gift that came from it but and also just I then spent the next summer Um, going to festivals and then hanging out with people that previously I’d have had a really negative sort of like pre judgment about a prejudice of like hippies and, and whoever and because I’d been a marine and I’d sort of soaked up that whole mental space, uh, homophobic and all that sort of stuff.

And then with her I went to festivals and just basically [00:12:00] was, had my mind blown about how amazing all these people were. basically connecting with all sectors of society that I hadn’t done before. And that all came from me just going, I don’t know what’s going on here. 

Giancarlo Canavesio: So would you say that, you know, with the shattering of your egoic armor, you basically lost your judgment and you felt more open in different reality, different way to lead your 

Bruce Parry: life.

It was the beginning of that. It was the beginning of that. And what it. What it did was because I was so sure of myself, you know, I’d been trained in the marine officer training, just tells you you’re the best of the best and you can do anything. No vulnerability. And you have to believe that. It’s like, I’m going to now be in charge of a whole bunch of people who are all older than me.

I need to be able to take them over the top to go to war, whatever. So it’s like, They tell you you’re the best and you believe it. And then you come out and you’ve got no idea about this thing like creativity or softness or invulnerability. And none of those things, you’re just not carrying that, but you don’t feel you need it.

You’re like, I’m [00:13:00] strong, I’m amazing, off we go. And so that just killed that. And I was, and then me going and spending a whole summer with all my friends who’d just gone to the city of London, you know, all my other marine officers who’d left, that’s where, that was the direct line. Yeah, into big money, like another bastion of male oriented, sort of like, egoic power structure.

And that would be the normal direction from all of those people. That would be the kind of direction they went. Or into some pseudo military type things. protection and security. Those were the jobs that most people went to. And I basically spent a whole year going to festivals, hanging out with people.

With the girlfriend you were in love with? The girlfriend I was in love with and just having my mind blown and realizing again and again, Oh my God, I thought I knew it all and I don’t know anything. And that was, that ultimately was the greatest gift I had for when I ended up doing the tribe series for the BBC.

Cause it was like, I’ve already had. My confidence in who I am and what I believe totally turned on its head once. There’s no way I’m going to go into these tribes [00:14:00] and think I know better. I’d better just go and listen, because And that was the secret for why those shows ended up. They were so successful.

Giancarlo Canavesio: Yeah. Amazing. Amazing. Amazing. So let’s, let’s stay on the awakening process. So that was the big, um, if you want, um. First bang. First bang at your egoic armor. Then did the festival, then you started the BBC and then what was the next, you know, they say spirited growth is not a linear line, right? It’s, it’s, it’s flat for a while and then there’s this jump.

Yeah. So what 

Bruce Parry: was your next jump? Well, let me think. So, I think the festivals were a jump, but I think probably, let’s just get to it, you know, doing a bogo with, with, uh, with the Bobongo people, which was the first of the tribe. Programs that we made. Yeah. And, uh, we didn’t even know what the shows were gonna be.

We were making it up as we went along. And I, at the end of having lived with these people for a month, they said, well, do you wanna do this thing? You know, you know, we do it. Are you, are you interested? We, we would be happy to initiate. Did you know anything about [00:15:00] Boca before? I’d read. I’d read about it on the flight, on the way out.

Um, cause, which is just a quirk of coincidence because we were supposed to be going to visit the Anomaly, but, but that had been cancelled at the last minute for a bunch of reasons and so we ended up changing to plan B. And so I’m only reading about the Bobongo on the way out, and I remember reading, Occasionally, there’s some problems with people who have heart problems.

Um, uh, but you can clearly figure out if you’ve got a problem or not by looking at your Q graph on your ECG or whatever. And I’m like, if I’d only read this yesterday, I could have had an ECG. But I’m on the flight now, there’s no way. But you never had it. No, no, no, I didn’t. But it was just that I had no idea about these things.

When you asked me, uh, did I know much about it, it was very fresh to me, I was reading about it as we went. And then of course I was with the people, um, and they invited me to do it. And I So we’re in Gabon. I was in Gabon, um, in, so, in the forest with a group [00:16:00] of people called the Babongo, who are pygmy peoples.

Um, and they’d never done it with an outsider before. And, uh And actually, it’s interesting, there was a guy there who’d been, who’s a French guy who’d been living in the area for 20 years or so, and he ended up kind of being my translator and conduit, because he was taking people for a boga ceremonies who used to come out from Europe.

Um, and he said he’d never seen anything like it, you know, because he we did a really traditional ceremony and there’s a lot of a boga going on in Libreville in the towns, but that’s like, um, a very modern takes on it with everyone’s just, you know, a little bit like Santa Dime or whatever. It’s like it’s come out of the forest and it’s been re implanted with Other people’s traditions and other ways of doing things.

So to go and do it very authentically in the forest was, was quite a rare thing, even for people like him, who’d been there for years and years. And, and And, and you were there with a camera. So we were 

Giancarlo Canavesio: there with a camera. Yeah, and people can watch this if they [00:17:00] YouTube Bruce Perry Iboga, they will see the footage.

Bruce Parry: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You don’t see it all, but you see there’s some clips. Um, obviously the film has a lot more, but, uh, it was Unbelievable, the, the privilege of having done it that way. Because I had the whole village, who I already knew, because I’d lived with them for a month, and then they spend like two or three days preparing.

I’m the only person doing it. You go in to your hut, where you, you, you, you’re told who your Bwiti father’s gonna be, and then They feed you the aboga for, uh, for about 12 hours, which is, which is actually, that, interestingly, is the initiation. That’s the hardest bit. Lots of people nowadays just take capsules or, or, or shred it, but they’re just stripping it off the big tuber, long strips, and they hand it to you, and you’ve got to chew it down, and no water, it can’t cross any lungs or legs, you’re sitting there in the dark with a small fire, and you eat that for about 12 hours a night.

It’s incredibly [00:18:00] difficult. It’s like swallowing, swallowing wood. Yeah, it’s like wood and battery acid. It’s like really acrid, and there’s no fluid in your mouth. So it’s really, it’s like trying to swallow chunks of wood that you’re breaking down. So really, really, really hard. Um, and you feel like your whole body’s sort of like on fire.

And so that was that. Um, which was the hard bit. That’s their initiation. And then you went into about, or I went into about, uh, another 12 hours, which is the main vision stage. So you’re having all of these empathic, out of body experiences of, of reliving past traumas and meeting deities and a whole bunch of stuff, which is phenomenal.

What was interesting, you’ll love this, Jack, what was really interesting is So every time I’d come out of one of these dreams, they’d say, Okay, what did you see? And I’m like, okay, well, you know, I just came out of my body, and I went into the sky, relived this moment with a girlfriend who was, who was really ill at the time, and I remember going into her body and looking at me through her eyes, and, Her [00:19:00] saying to me, I’m in her, well she says to me, I’m looking at Bruce, from her, and she goes, I love you, and then me going, yeah I do too, but I’m kind of looking away, and it looks like I don’t mean it, and I feel her heart from within her, like breaking in two, so these sorts of, deeply empathic experiences that I’m vividly living through the Yerberga experience.

Um, and then, so I’m explaining this to my Buitti father, he goes, no, no, no, no, what did you see? And I’m like, what do you mean? I just broke, I’ve just poured my heart out. He’s like, well, then I’d have another way. I’ve met this deity. What do you think? What do you think he meant? So, well, I’ll tell you. So like, I, I get explaining all of this stuff to him.

And he’s like, no, that’s your interpretation. This is, this is me telling him all of these dreams of, of experiences that I have, like meeting deities, all this, the whole bunch, and he’s like, no, no, no. And then every time I try and explain to him after coming out of a dream state what I’ve seen, he’s like not interested.

And I say, well, He goes, what did you see? Never anything more than that. What [00:20:00] did you see? And then I’m like, well, I’m, I’m seeing these shapes and things too. He goes, ah, what did you see? And then I’m like, well, it was like this thing spinning. And he goes, what did you see? And then basically he was. only interested in these shapes and only when I described it in the fullest of its detail, and I’ve sworn I can never sort of like explain them in detail to anyone else, but I would share the dimensions and the color and the flashing and the movement and whatever it is, like, ah, bouquet!

And then he’d name it. And then on we went. And then so I’m like, and then later on, much later, like days later, I said to him, why weren’t you interested in all those like emotional? He goes, Oh yeah, I hear that. Outsiders sometimes have some problems, but we’re not interested in that. But 

Giancarlo Canavesio: what is, they were like geometrical figure, like, like, like cube and 

Bruce Parry: hexagon and triangle.

I’m not able to answer that directly. Um, but you don’t remember? No, because I, because it’s a vowel. But, um, yeah, certainly [00:21:00] different types of shape, and they have names for all of them. And what I, I guess, what I’ve guessed or sort of believe is that they’re, they’re interested in whether or not you meet the Bwiti.

And the Bwiti is the deity. And these are, these are the Signposts along the way and it will be different people go down different paths because you’ll see them in different spaces but they that’s the knowledge that they hold is That and they need to then go and explain that afterwards because this is only like the first day of three days So after that After that, 12 hours of seeing all the visions and having this time, then I come out of this hut and I literally get picked up straight away, put on someone’s shoulders and I don’t touch the ground for two whole days.

But I’m like being carried around day and night, taken down to the river, washed, put through a vulva, reborn, and then back on someone’s shoulders and then like sitting on the crook of people’s feet while they’re rushing around, [00:22:00] sprinkling me with water in the daylight. Literally fires, fires being thrown around me.

And a hundred, a hundred things going on for two days all the time while I’m like the whole energy of the entire village just all focused on me for two days, dancing and singing, they’re the most amazing musicians. And what were you feeling at that moment? Well, I’m seeing, seeing. Lots of stuff, you know, I’m more figure more geometrical stuff.

No more because your eyes are open. You’re not in a dark room I mean I am seeing some things and and for example They asked me at the end when I had this moment with the elders, which is the the sort of the sacred sort of actual Initiation where they ask you about the shapes and the things and they say what did you see on the second day when you come?

out and the first thing that you saw, you, um, that, they have a name for that, and that becomes your name. So on the second day, it’s the first, uh, [00:23:00] image that you see, and mine became Mekanga, and that’s Blue Star. And so blue stars what I saw on the second day and that became a name but like so all of this going on Yeah, crazy, but so according 

Giancarlo Canavesio: to your main shaman.

How do you call him? 

Bruce Parry: You’re my 

Giancarlo Canavesio: booty father your booty father when you describe the shape and figured did he feels that you did? Yeah, 

Bruce Parry: yeah, yeah, yeah. So I was initiated. It was, it was sufficient. But what they’re really interested in So 

Giancarlo Canavesio: sometimes people don’t get 

Bruce Parry: That’s a very good question and I couldn’t answer that.

But I tell you what they, what they, what they judge you on most is how well you eat the wood. So it’s, they’re not interested in all your psychological stuff. It’s like, how well do you receive the wood and eat the wood? And they, they were actually very impressed with how I did that. And the guy who is like, he said, you see, you see how well he ate the wood?

And I didn’t even know that’s what they were testing. [00:24:00] But, uh, I Because you 

Giancarlo Canavesio: had a high tolerance for pain? 

Bruce Parry: No, because I Because I really wanted to do, I just really wanted to do it. I wanted to have the experience and, um, but I, I, I have to say it’s one of the hardest things I’ve ever done. It was really, really, really difficult.

It’s like unbelievably hard to sit there and just constantly eat this thing without any water to wash it down. Just like chewing on bats. Battery acid wood chunks. 

Giancarlo Canavesio: But so in that moment, what, you know, your Buitti father would say that when you encountered the spirit of the Buitti, do you remember how, did you felt this non dual experience of cosmic consciousness?

Bruce Parry: Definitely, there were, there were a number of phases. I mean, it’s a Sort of 12 hour of different visions, and you can it was it was weird It was there was a structure to it actually in a way the first phase. I felt like I was going down Like you know like you would have if [00:25:00] you’re on a deep or at least I’ve experienced on deep ketamine trips where you you kind of spiral down like a In a hole an endless k hole sort of shoot.

You know where your look feels like you’re just diving into the Into some down some like time loop into something and so but a very psychedelic visual one But it’s like it so I was going down that and what was what was interesting about that first phase Was that this guy who the French guy who was there with me?

I he was asked he was helping me prepare the day before and he said look what you should do is like Sit for the day Um, by the river and just write out all of your, your, basically your wrongdoings, all of your sort of like, things that you, you feel ashamed of or whatever in your life, because that, that will help you in this process tomorrow.

So I had sort of written out all my, my sort the lies and the cheating and whatever it was, you know, a confession sheet that I wrote. And [00:26:00] interestingly, when I went in this first phase of the ceremony, when I’m taking my, um, iboga, all of those things that I’d written out, they didn’t come, they didn’t appear to me at all.

But what, what, but then there was this like, almost like this joke, giant finger, pointing that was like in this, so I’m traveling down the chute and there was this like big finger pointing at me and he goes, but you forgot that, didn’t you? You’re like that as well, aren’t you? You’re like that. You didn’t write that one down, did you?

So it’s like two or three things that I like completely forgotten about. They appeared. So it was like this whole first sort of like, um, dive into the space was like the full catharsis. It’s like, okay, here’s your mental space of letting go and, and realizing who you really are. And then after that, then I went into the next phase, which was like reliving sort of like very.

powerful moments, like the moment with the girlfriend that I described where I came out and I embodied her, me breaking her heart from lack of care and, but I mean, you don’t get, I mean, that’s [00:27:00] the most literal description of empathy you can ever have. It’s like seeing, feeling someone else’s feelings. I was literally in her body looking out from her eyes at me and I had a few moments like that where I felt my impact on the world, um, and then after that, there was another phase which was a little bit more.

astral, where I was kind of in a cloud, more cloud like space where I was meeting deities. And again, I’m not quite allowed to describe what that was, but that that was a space. And then after that, there was the more, let’s say, uh, universal consciousness, awareness of letting go of self and dissolution into the whole.

So it kind of flowed in that direction. And, and I’ve, I’ve read somewhere that that. Actually, what is similar to how it is for other people, too. Wow. Yeah, it’s a good one. Incredible. That was my first ever tribe episode, you know. Incredible. Incredible. 

Giancarlo Canavesio: Incredible. So, so, just, let’s stay just a little bit longer on this, uh, awakening process.

So it [00:28:00] started with the mushroom. continue with the Iboga in Gabon, and then what would be, what do you think would be the next, you know, spiritual 

Bruce Parry: jump? Yeah. Well, I mean, I did a number of different medicines then with the tribal people around the world, but I think for the sake of time, because I could Sit here with you for a long time talking about the jumps But I think the next really big one was the coggy Which happened after the BBC when I went off with you to make to why?

and I had had an experience with the coggy for some time and 

Giancarlo Canavesio: Let’s briefly tell what the 

Bruce Parry: Coggy are. Okay, okay, okay. Well, this is another wormhole in its own right, the Coggy. Super interesting. I think we’re going to have to have you 

Giancarlo Canavesio: back. So let’s do this first hour as episode one of 

Bruce Parry: Bruce Perry. Okay, okay.

All right. So, so the Coggy are a wonderful indigenous society, culture, uh, who, a civilization really living in a place called the San, uh, the Sierra Nevada de Santa Marta in [00:29:00] Columbia. They, they were, um, the Tairona people. And it’s the first place that Columbus ever, ever landed. He, Columbus himself didn’t.

The Spanish ever landed in South America was this place called Santa Marta in Colombia on the Caribbean coast and in that place was this Torona people. They co existed with the Spanish in a really pretty difficult way for about 80 years and then there was a big revolt and they ran off and sort of disappeared into this massif, this snow capped mountain range, well it’s not even a range, it’s like a, it’s like a massif, one sort of big whole block that’s uh, just inland from the Caribbean coast um, and they basically have co existed there.

No, it’s not co existent. They’ve existed there, sort of like ran away from the Spanish for the last 500 years Um, and split into a number of different, um, civilizations. the Wewer, the Arawako, the Coggy, and another, um, and they are super interesting. I mean, we could [00:30:00] really talk about these people. Yeah.

There 

Giancarlo Canavesio: is a BBC documentary on them, no? There is. 

Bruce Parry: Yeah. How’s it called? It’s called the, uh, Heart of the World, uh, Elder Brothers Warning, and that was made in 1980. And then basically I went back with the same guy, Alan Herrera, 20 years later to go and make the sequel. of that. And, and that was where I first went out.

He introduced me to them and we were going to make this doc. Um, and the, the, the reason that I was interested in meeting them was because I was already now by the time I’d left the BBC, well as I was leaving the BBC, um, super interested in consciousness and connection. And this, these people have a very, very interesting religion, have a very, very interesting spiritual tradition and a really interesting politics.

And, and I was thinking if I was going to explore this more. They had to be a group that I would like to meet and listen to because they have very particular ways of being in the world. And so I was very keen to go [00:31:00] out. 

Giancarlo Canavesio: One, one, one, um, interesting practice is that they have this very curious. Um, training for the spiritual leader, which is they grow up in a cave, complete darkness, almost, for 16 years?

Bruce Parry: 18. 18. Well, they do it for 9 years, and then they’re given the choice of rejoining the society, or staying, and most of them stay. And some stay for 27 years. But most leave at 19, having never seen a bird, or a tree, or a mountain, or anything. But in that time, and there’s not very many that have this.

There’s many, there’s many Mamos. The Mamo’s the name for the spiritual priest leaders. There’s like 10 percent of the whole population of mammos. So whenever anyone is born, the existing mammos do a divination and watch the birth and decide in that moment whether that. That newborn is going to become a fellow mammo, um, and if they are going to be a mammo, then it could be for the trees, it could be for the rivers, it could be for the clouds, it could be for whatever, but some are for Mother Nature herself and they’re the ones [00:32:00] who then go to the, to the dark rooms, the caves, where they spend this time in sort of sensory deprivation where they’re then invited to see nature without.

and hear the voice of nature from within the space. Yeah, 

Giancarlo Canavesio: it’s just to avoid the armor and the preconception. 

Bruce Parry: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so they literally have this. And then they come out and become, um, alongside the other Mamos, these people who are basically trying to get rid When they make group decisions, they use these amazing divination bowls with and they make the decisions on what they think is not coming from them, but coming from the voice of nature itself.

And that’s how they’re able to decide what crops to grow, or how to do this, or how to do that. And so, super interesting. Um, and, and, and And it works. Well, I mean, unlike the Aztecs who had problems with leadership, or problems with soil, uh, Yeah, all of that. These guys are still tilling the same soils that they have done for 500 years, and the [00:33:00] populace follows them because it works for them and so it seems to be working for everyone.

So it’s super interesting. And this whole idea around divination and connection and what is this voice that they’re hearing and all these things, clearly I was interested in that having been woken up from these other indigenous experiences. I was like, wow, what is this? And so Um, I went out there with Alan to, to see if we could make another film.

And that was, there’s serendipities in every aspect of all of this. It’s like, they were, they had already sent a message to Alan that they wanted to, the same day that we did for, you know, so all these things. And it’s like, there’s always serendipity when you end up talking about the Coggy. It’s very strange.

They, they, they believe, a big part of their belief is in this realm called Aluna. which is like a conscious realm, a realm of consciousness. And they’re the master meditators. Um, they all walk around with these little pots called purpura pots, which are full of, uh, calcius, um, shells that have been burnt and [00:34:00] crushed.

And they use that for activating the coca leaves that they chew. And they’re always using these meditative practices to basically try and imagine in their mind something that then, only then, once they’ve imagined it in the world of a lunar, can it actually manifest then in this world. So, lots of commonalities with, Uh, you know, new age thinking and a whole bunch of stuff, which is why the manifestation practices.

So there’s a very popular group of people, but there’s quite hard to get in to meet them and you can meet them around the edge. But anyway, so I, that’s setting the scene for this moment for me. So I go and I meet these people. I have the most crazy dreams and it’s a really powerful thing. And they say to me, Alan, when we.

As they say to Alan, when we made your film, we told you, um, that we, they call themselves the elder brother, were telling you, the younger brother, younger brother being like everyone else on the planet. It’s like, you’re destroying the planet. You’re, you know, we know because mother nature is [00:35:00] herself is telling us that you’re destroying the oceans, you’re destroying the forest.

We can feel the glaciers retreating, you to wake up. Because 

Giancarlo Canavesio: in Santa Marta, they have from the snow in the forest, in the, in the mountain. to the sea. Yeah. So they have the full spectrum of all the ecosystem. So they have a direct, uh, in, you know, vision of the, of the 

Bruce Parry: impact. Absolutely. Absolutely. And so that was the film that Alan made in 1980, I think it was.

And it was, uh, telling us younger brother, and this is way before the, like the environmental movement had really kicked in and climate change and stuff. It’s like you younger brother, you’re destroying the place. Anyway. So we go back 20 years later. Um, When I’m with him and he goes like, okay, this time we, we told you what we know.

Now we’re going to show you how we know it. And so me, I’m like, Oh my God, I’m going to be that guy that gets to unlock the secrets of these magical beings who do this training and it’s like, what, what, what does, what is that? That’s [00:36:00] extraordinary. So you can imagine how I felt at the prospect of that being a possibility for me, um, some of which was egoic and other.

Some of it, which is also to be of service to this extraordinary important message that I believed in, because I’d, you know, seen climate change and all these things. So I was very in alignment with the message, but I was also super curious about how it is that they do know these things. It’s like, are they just rational ecologists who study things really well, or are they actually connecting to some voice that we have no clue about, because we don’t go through that sort of training.

I don’t know the answer to that, but I’m open to it. Anyway. So, I say to them, as I’m leaving, this guy, Maman, Ramon, Um, okay, how can I best prepare? And he goes, easy, just give up sex, drugs, alcohol, drugs, all these things, you know. For how long? And like, you know, we were going to come back in like, we were going to come back and do the filming in like, I don’t know, six weeks.

But I’m like, what, six weeks of no sex? I live in Ibiza, this is my [00:37:00] life. And I’m like, no. And he goes, okay, we don’t need to. And then I’m like, oh. Yeah, no, yeah, I will. Will. Of course I will. Of course I will. I want to do that. Um, and so we’ll see how it flows. Anyway, as I’m leaving, someone says to me, Bruce, you know that You know that if you don’t do this, it’s your, you’ll get a blockage in your ability to come back and make this film.

And I’m like, what are you talking about? He goes, well, because these are the master manifestos they create, they’re connecting with the lunar. If you’ve now got a direct line with them, then this is how it works. And I’m like, listen, I don’t know if I believe that it’s like, yeah, these guys are amazing, but that they can affect the sort of like the fabric of.

The universe the other side of the world whether or not things. I mean, that’s what that was beyond where I was At that time. Yeah, my upbringing I was very open and to various things but to that level of mental Ability to adapt the fabric was was beyond where I was so anyway, I come back to the UK [00:38:00] and and I’m I just started going out with someone and We’d only just started and in my head when I’d said yes, I’d give up sex, drugs and alcohol.

I was like, okay I’ll do it after just like a day with with this person and and then we’ll call it quits So we so we’d spent a night together and then literally as soon as it finished I remember the phone lighting up and it’s like there’s a text from the BBC producer saying oh, there’s a problem I’m having difficulties with Alan.

I’m not sure if this film is gonna work out or not and I’m like, okay that that’s that’s I was so desperate to make this film, that, that was a real blow to me, it’s like, wow, I, I could be the guy that makes this extraordinary film, and now there’s this thing, I mean, that’s clearly just a coincidence, but, still, that’s like, that’s a, that’s a, Scary coincidence.

’cause that was literally right after I’d transcended or not trans transgressed, this first sort of vow, if you will. Anyway, so I take myself off to, to India and go to meditation retreat, and [00:39:00] I go and drink Ayahuasca in the Himalayas and I go get myself away from Aha. Um, and start on this journey in preparation.

And I end up seeing this girlfriend again in Delhi. And we have another night. And I, we, you know, I don’t actually directly transgress it, but I. Pretty much do and I literally again the moment that we say goodbye my phone lights up and it’s like a Bruce. Sorry, mate That’s um, there’s too many problems.

I’m Recording at all. That’s incredible And so in that moment you’re asking me about my like the moments of my awakening in that moment I’m like, oh my god. Okay, Bruce You’re the person who is getting all this acclaim from all these people around the world like the tribe guy Yeah, you’ve made all this serious tribe, you’ve won BAFTAs, you’re, yeah, everyone thinks of you as this guy.

And it was true that I, when I went to these places, I lived in their families and I did their rituals and I listened to them and I was respectful and I was present for everything. But there was always a bit of [00:40:00] the back of my head was like, yeah, you know, we kind of know better. There was always that bit, even if I was with the shaman and having the thing, I always maintained a little bit of my scientific material mindset, which was like, not willing to fully go in to them, whatever, whatever it was that they were inviting me.

So I was not one of the tribe at all. I was like, a visitor, and I was a visitor who got stuck into loads of stuff, but the important stuff, which is like how they see the world, I’d always stayed on my side of the fence. And there it was again. I’m given this opportunity. I’m like with a coggy. It’s like, Oh my God, like here’s these two, what I would normally think of as coincidences.

But, but maybe, maybe I’m wrong, maybe this isn’t coincidence, maybe this is exactly what I was told would happen, which is this. And so in that moment, I’m like, oh my god, I’m a fraud in a sense, um, why don’t I, I need to [00:41:00] let go. I need to let go into this space and put on the hat of their belief system, even, I can always take it off again and put my old one back on, but.

I need to actually explore the possibility that what they’re saying is real. And of course, as you can imagine, my whole life changed in that moment. And everything shifted literally from that second. Everything was then full of, uh, full of meaning. Meaning in every Every encounter, every butterfly that landed had a message.

Every person that I brushed up against had a, had a, a, a, a resonance and a, and a journey. And a and a, some, even the, even the difficult stuff was like, met with such joy and gratitude because it was an opportunity of a, of a, of another lesson because it was just like I was on a conveyor belt with gifts just landing in my lap from the universe at every stage.

And so there you go. That’s a 

Giancarlo Canavesio: amazing, that’s another one. Amazing. I mean it so, so, so. So, let’s say that, you know, the final straw that breaks the [00:42:00] camel’s back of scientific materialism was the second message indirectly from the Kogui in Delhi. Which year are we now in, in, roughly? 

Bruce Parry: Um, 20, no, 2009. 2009. 

Giancarlo Canavesio: So, so.

And then you decided to do a documentary to try to capture all this, and that’s when we met. And, um, you know, I really would like to talk about building community, but you know, Mango TV is a documentary platform after all, let’s take five minutes to share your experience with Hawaii. Brutally honest, joy and frustration.

You know, now there’s been some time, unfortunately. We didn’t have enough resources for distribution, and I will send this podcast to Audrey Marcus because I want him to hear from you your description of Iboga, of your Iboga experience, and you know, I want him to invite you to his podcast [00:43:00] who has a much bigger reach.

So that we can maybe give Tawai a little bit more visibility because it’s a beautiful documentary, which is on Mango TV. But anyhow, let’s take five minutes, talking about your experience making Tawai the voice of the forest. 

Bruce Parry: What do you want to know, my friend? What do you want 

Giancarlo Canavesio: to know? You know, like people that are listening to us are people that mostly come from Mango TV, where there is 20, 30 documentary, we keep on licensing documentary.

I still, a documentary is a great form of information and education. You know, I always say that, you know, Marina Bravo, she’s a great performance artist, right? She had this show at the MoMA, the artist is present, was called, and it was beautiful. She will sit in there, she will have. People sitting in front of her and she would stare at people for several minutes.

It was incredible. I felt, you know, an incredible connection with this woman, with her work. And then I watched a documentary on her. And the [00:44:00] documentary went under my skin much deeper than the art. So it’s not that for everybody, you know. Some people don’t like to maybe watch, um, image for so long, but I think that this is a precious tool.

to really touch people to the core. That’s why I keep on licensing them and making them and, and, and, and, and I’m in love with them. So you had the, the opportunity to raise money in collaboration with a friend who was an artist, um, promised some painting to, to, to the investor. So you had, you were in a privileged position to raise funds.

And then what was your, if you look back, the documentary lasted probably to shoot one year and then to cut another two years, that was three years 

Bruce Parry: of your life, right? I don’t know. It was. It’s like, we filmed for three years, we edited for two, I mean, it was about ten years of my life. Oh my god. In the end, yeah.

So, yeah, I, uh, thank you. I, I, I was so driven because I had learned so much from the [00:45:00] indigenous peoples, the great privilege and I felt that I hadn’t had an opportunity to express that in the BBC films. It’s like, the BBC films were wonderful and I’m very proud, I mean, I hate that word, but in a sense I am, you know, it’s like, I was, really happy with everything that came out, so happy with the, the, the, um, the producers and, and the whole team that was part of that.

But like, but there was definitely layers that I was learning that weren’t coming out. And I felt a sense of responsibility to the audience and also to the tribal people to, to express this more. Um, and a big part of that was to some of the spiritual stuff that I was learning that the, and the sort of philosophical stuff that was.

a very big part of what I wanted to share. And there was also something that was really, um, very profound for me. And that was that I had lived with indigenous peoples all over the world. I was like the tribe guy. I’d thought I’d seen it all. I’d seen every type of society imaginable in every remote corner [00:46:00] of this planet that people can’t even get into, let alone go to so many.

Um, and so I, I was carrying this, uh, these insights. And one thing, if you’ll, if you’ll allow me, that was like really powerful for me that, yeah, for all of the wisdom that I had learned from, from my time with tribal people, uh, which was all the stuff that we know, like the, the, you know, the, the importance of community, the, the connection to nature, the healing modalities, the, the importance of how kids flourish when there’s, you know, in communal settings, and all these sorts of things, the, the deep stuff.

We hear it being talked about the whole time. At the end of the day, I also, I mean, I lost my, I lost my romance living with tribal people. There’s all sorts of difficult stuff. There’s lots of misogyny, there’s lots of, like, warfare, and they’re not all respecting nature masterfully. It’s like, you know, they’re human societies.

And, uh, And also they’re dealing [00:47:00] with a lot of the problems that we deal with around stress and anxiety, around status and power and all that stuff too. So like, there they are. They’re not, they’re not trashing the world the same degree as we are, but they’re just on the same conveyor belt, just much further back.

So I kind of came to a place where it’s like, actually, our species is a bit messed up, you know. It’s like, we’re, maybe we’re destined to being where we are because it’s like, it’s, because we’re, we’re complex beings and we’re getting caught up in these power structures and all the rest of it. So that was my kind of like take away at the end of my time with, with making the Tribe series until I made the last episode and then I’m like, Oh my God.

Oh, my God, this is completely different. It’s like every other person I’ve ever met in my life, every other society, whether it’s indigenous or whether it’s a nation state, I could put on one side, and then this group was like the same, the same hardware, but completely different operating system. These guys, the Penan.

And so this was the last group I met. And ultimately, they were a group of people who weren’t [00:48:00] dealing with They had methods and tools within their society to deal with power and hierarchy. So there was no shaman, no leaders, and yet here they were, living in this way. And then I went off to meet another group, in the making of Twight, didn’t make it into the film, sadly, called the Bengeli, who also were like this.

And that was like, to me, it’s like, God, no one knows about this. Our real deep history prior to the Neolithic revolution is that we were actually really very harmonious and we did actually have tools and methods to maintain balance and harmony, which is at the heart of All of the problems that we’re seeing now, I see now, actually can come from that moment of shift of getting into the game of power and hierarchy.

So I wanted to merge these two things. I wanted to go and meet the Panan who were telling us about sharing, and about equality, and about leadership, and all that sort of stuff. And then also, mix that with a journey that was talking about spirit and connection and consciousness, because they were the two big things that I’d learned.

And so that’s 

Giancarlo Canavesio: The Penan, they were [00:49:00] nomadic 

Bruce Parry: hunter gatherer. Exactly, yeah. So they had no sort of, like, they hadn’t been affected by the impacts of Of settling. Of settling and agriculture, so like the Neolithic Revolution and the domestication of plants and animals. And, and, you know, I’d already lived with other hunter gatherers, but I hadn’t lived with no truly nomadic hunter gatherers who were still flowing with nature in the forest.

And I knew they were out there, and I’d heard that they were egalitarian, but the The reality of meeting them is very different to just reading about this on the page. I, the first moment I met them, I’m like, Oh my god, you are completely different. And I couldn’t even put my finger on what it was, because it was like, some part of me that I normally bring to every experience of meeting someone, which is like, Where am I?

Where do I sit? Where, where, what, where, where’s the status play here? Which it was invisible to me, but it was like, I, I didn’t know that that was what I was doing, but I realized that that’s what I always did whenever I went anywhere. And then when I come to this group, it just, the, the, the, that game wasn’t being played.

And so there was this [00:50:00] whole thing that was like, what’s happening here? I can’t figure it out. And it’s only much later when I started talking to anthropologists like Jerome and Ingrid Lewis who studied these groups and they’re like, yeah, yeah, yeah, this is, this is our, this is our main way of being that’s, that’s been here for like 95 percent of our time on the planet.

And like, uh, and so everywhere that you can go now in Africa and Southeast Asia, it kind of didn’t, didn’t last that much out of the tropics. But like, there’s, there’s a dozen small groups now that you can go and meet in Africa and Southeast Asia who all have these same traits, which is they’re egalitarian and they’re, they don’t have, got caught up in the game of hierarchy and power in the same way that everyone else has.

And they’re all slightly different, they’re not all the same, but they carry similar qualities around no coercion and no ownership and all this sort of stuff. And it’s not just small groups, but you go to the Congo now and it’s like 200, 000 people all existing in this paradigm, um, in this sort [00:51:00] of flowing, ebbing way of being that just is a decentralized, autonomous way of being that is like our true ancestry.

And I’m like, Oh, my God, no one knows this. But this Congo 

Giancarlo Canavesio: tribe, the 200, 000 people, they are nomadic. Yeah. Because that, I think, helps, 

Bruce Parry: right? Of course, of course. Not building up on So what’s been really interesting for me, having made to Y Sorry, Bruce. Yes. 

Giancarlo Canavesio: Because the second tribe you mentioned that didn’t make it into the movie, I’m not familiar 

Bruce Parry: They’re called the Bengeli.

Giancarlo Canavesio: The Bengeli, and what was their particularity? 

Bruce Parry: So they’re, basically, when I went to visit the Penan, Jerome and Ingrid, who feature in the film Tawai, telling me about these sort of pre Neolithic, egalitarian tribes. Um, they describe all these tools that are the tools that the community use in order to maintain balance.

It’s not like a natural state. It makes a lot of work in all these different ways. And so, and so he was describing that. But when I was with the Panan, I [00:52:00] didn’t see those. Those, those methodologies and those tools and tricks and techniques in use, it was like they just were like existing in this very placid space.

And so he said, okay, let me take you to a group that I know who live in the Congo and you’ll see this much more played out. And so that’s what happened. And actually, if you go to the TOI website, it’s an outtake you can see, uh, under this area called Next. And, um, we can talk about that later. But you can see the little clip that I made.

It’s just ten, ten minutes of, of What I’m about to describe to you. And so when you go there, you find, oh, this is how they do it. And I think I’ve spent the last 10 years trying to unpick all of those techniques and think, okay, what of those techniques is transferable to today? What is it that we could learn?

Because obviously you could say, oh, well, it’s a time gone by. We’re not hunter gatherers anymore. Oh, they used to live in the tropics. And we’re not nomadic. And all these things. So it’s like, that’s the easy way of just going, it’s impossible, it’s in the past, there’s nothing you can do about it. I wasn’t happy to just sit there and [00:53:00] go, Oh, well, it’s a time gone by.

It’s like, no, no, no, no, no, no. What is it about how they do this? Is there anything that’s transferable? And that’s basically been my last 10 years. Um, and I didn’t get a chance to put that into the film because I hadn’t actually figured it all out. at that stage. The film ended up being much more about spirit and connection and consciousness.

And we talk a little bit about sharing and, and, and power, but not really. And so having made Tawai, that’s been what I’ve been about since then. But you asked me, my motivation was that there, there was this group and, you know, I was a tribe guy and I didn’t know that egalitarian was our true ancestry. I just didn’t realize it, egalitarianism.

And so I wanted to have, I wanted to touch on that. And then also, but I think because I was very, I was living in Ibiza and I was on a very deep spiritual journey here, that that played itself out in Tawai as well. So not having enough space and being a first time director and making every mistake, I mean literally every mistake in the [00:54:00] book, just filming way too much and going everywhere and spending too much money on trying to squeeze in all these things.

I realized only when I came to the edit, there’s just no way I can do that, and I make it to a very nuanced audience who already knows this stuff. If I want to actually make an impact, I need to get rid of so much of this stuff. We got rid of the whole Ayahuasca section, which was a trip to Colombo, we got rid of the whole of the um, of the Bengeli in the Congo.

They’re both scenes you can see on the website, but they didn’t make it into the film because I just. It didn’t have enough time. It would have been a five hour epic otherwise. 

Giancarlo Canavesio: Okay. Perfect. So now we’re going to the, um, a little bit the heart after one hour premise of, of, of, of, I think what is very important that you’re doing now.

And you mentioned a little bit, you, you know, you’re trying to integrate the learning from these tribes that live peacefully without the power structure. Without, uh, [00:55:00] um, this extracting mentality of, of using nature and, you know, without this competition that, that, that, that create, you know, anxiety and, and disease.

You can say, I know this is controversial, but, um, so, you know, we live in Ibiza where I have two example of, of community, you know, one is my son’s school, it’s, it’s, it’s called the learning project. It’s, um, self directed democratic school. And so it’s a hundred kids from five to 16 and basically. The philosophy of this school is that first, forget about education, first you need to develop trust and joy.

You need these kids to trust each other, to, you know, care for each other, to help each other and to play together. And then there are also rules that they vote. And then there is a committee of peace and justice that basically the kids control and run [00:56:00] which, uh, decide the punishment for people that break the rules that they have created.

And I see that. I’ve spent a day there the other day and you see these kids at five years old thinking about, okay, but I voted these rules and then I broke these rules and all this critical thinking with the prism of the group. But that’s his hundred kids. Now the. Problem we have in millions people society and, and, and traditional school and kids come home in this like, you know, uh, segregated and, you know, and, and this neighborhood where we are building fences and alarm and dogs and, you know, we have been separating each other.

So. We can discuss the state of the world and we can say that it’s getting better, but there’s definitely improvement to make in terms of how do we live together in society? How do we create a state of trust and harmony? And, um, You know, Mangusta TV, Mangusta [00:57:00] Productions is developing a series of, of, um, of, of, of, of, of documentary on, on post capitalistic society.

We, we find, we, we call them, we’ve been shooting in, in Tamera already. We want to go to Damanhur and to Oroville and to Pachamama and, and so the experience from Tamera is that this group of people, they basically. I have this idea that, like my son’s school, is this idea of like, you know, building trust to mirror each other, you know, out of love.

So, so they meet like three times a week. They have this big meeting where they call each other. on what is perceived a non harmonious behavior or non collaborative behavior. And as you know, sometimes, you know, you need other people to tell you because they see things, you know, like there was a case where in the regenerative agriculture department, there was a guy who wanted to do a thing, but was really motivated by a girl.

And, [00:58:00] and the other people see that. So people, they put him in the spot, but with love because they’ve been living together. The kids have grown together. It’s not like putting a friend in the spot at a party where he is an acquaintance. Those people are close to each other. So what I would like to ask you is like, and I know that you’re still exploring and there is no certainty, but what are you trying to do?

In terms of building this community in Wales, what is, what has been your journey? And it’s still 

Bruce Parry: ongoing. That’s very much ongoing. Yeah. Well, I mean, firstly, just beautiful what you just described. And it’s so nice because I haven’t seen you in a while. And like this, this, these new insights that you’re receiving is very in alignment with where I’m at, Giancarlo.

And like, it’s really beautiful because like, when I first heard about democratic schools years ago, I was like, that’s it. You know, it’s like here, here we’re beginning to see some of the things that I’ve learned on my journeys. Taking shape. And I think that there is loads, loads of things that are happening now around the world that [00:59:00] are wake, that are awakening moments to this, like, you know, on the online space, the dials and, um, uh, all that sort of stuff.

And web three is similar, you know, understanding, trust and decentralization is just Two of the many tools that are needed, you know, you need them all, but that we’re waking up to some of this stuff. And so what I realized having made Twi is that some of the things that were really vital to me, even though people would watch the film and I spent millions and like 10 years of my life, it’s still going over people’s heads.

And I’m like, why is it that some of these deeper messages are not landing? And then it kind of dawned on me that like, okay, I’m the lucky guy that’s actually experienced this. For me, it was real. I’ve touched it. Experiential, yeah. I’ve touched it, and it’s like, I can talk until I’m blue in the face, but I can, I see people just start glazing over when I start talking about this stuff.

You know, and like, when you really get into truly what egalitarianism is, it’s so far away from our lived [01:00:00] reality. I think, you know, no philosopher or religious leader in history has even touched on it. You know, you think every philosopher that’s ever had a go at like how humans should best live together, whether it’s Plato, Aristotle, Jesus, Muhammad, Buddha, whoever it is, none of them came up with this because it’s so far away.

And yet there it is, not only alive today in the forest and I’ve been there, but also possibly. Our shared ancestry is a whole species for so long, which is why we’re so finely tuned to value and status and all these things. We know it in our bodies. And so I’m like, wow, I’ve touched this, like a seed has been planted in my heart.

And I’m like, okay, the only way that I’m actually going to be able to share this truly is by living it myself. And that’s proved hard. because it’s like putting the genie back into the bottle. It’s like the whole trip we’re on at the moment around, um, freedom and like, uh, and like, uh, individualism and all this stuff needs to be looked at through a different lens when you’re now thinking collectively, you know, and [01:01:00] obviously collective ideas have been out there for a while.

You know, that’s what like Marx and all these guys are talking about, but they still caught, got caught up in very centralized ways of. Figuring that out. And this is like fully decentralized, fully autonomous, um, individuals within a, within a collective. And so that’s what I have been trying to, to figure out, whether or not I, I with a group of people can recreate this.

And, um, and it’s proving hard, because actually getting the genie back in for all of us is tough. So, but that was that’s the motivation was to like create something that replicated this so that others could touch it It could become its own virus that would spread. It’s like oh, yeah, okay, you’re doing it like that And then others could do the same and it being it’s a slow way of doing things But 

Giancarlo Canavesio: so level with us like, you know the practicality and the challenge and so you bought a piece of land in Wales.

Yeah 

Bruce Parry: Sorry, Bruce. Oh, you know, I I let’s [01:02:00] do it. Let’s do it. No, I’m living I am I’m here to answer the question. Yeah, 

Giancarlo Canavesio: I mean, you know, the, we have a very loving community, very understanding, you know, you have been creating so much, um, important stuff for this discussion, so, um, so your, your idea was to live in a, what’s the word, when you live out of nature but without 

Bruce Parry: agriculture?

No, no, no, uh, what I’ve been interested in is And so it doesn’t mean that you have to go and be a hunter gatherer again. It doesn’t mean you have to be a nomad. What’s the word, anyway? Sort of, uh, pre agrarian, what you When, when, when, uh Oh, like instant return. Instant, 

Giancarlo Canavesio: no, the, you know, when you leave from nature Yes.

But you don’t plan. You know, you live from the wild 

Bruce Parry: nature. Yeah, so like a foraging Foraging, foraging. Okay, yeah, so I remember, 

Giancarlo Canavesio: the last thing I remember about you is like, Bruce Perry, he’s starting a foraging community in Wales, where he’s gonna go and, and Drive half an [01:03:00] hour with the bicycle to, to fish and he’s going to 

Bruce Parry: leave from the foot.

That, that, that, um, there’s a part of me that actually really wants to do that. And the original group of people that I was going to live with all have experienced really beautiful skills in that space. Um, as it happened, that didn’t turn out with that group because I made a power move and like these people that I’m with.

a very advanced, and they’ve all been living in community for a while, like your friends in Tamara. They’ve all, they all know community life. And, and ultimately I went and bought a place without talking to the group first thinking they would love it. But that in its own right was a power move. And so they ended up not joining.

Um, and so that left me on my own, but they didn’t like the location. I think there was a bit of that, but it’s also because it was suddenly mine. It was yours. And even though I was going to let go of it, it, their energy was. Okay, there’s a founder energy there and like, you know, and it’s these things are very subtle.

They’re very subtle. But when you’re living in [01:04:00] community, so many of the people that I’m, I’m now talking to who are extraordinary group who all lived with each other, we’ve been in process for about three years now, me and about 15 people who’ve all lived together, who, who have lived in this great place in a, in a town not far from where I live, but they’re, they’re interested in what I’m So you’ve been living with these people for No, I’m living In my place, and then just up the road, there’s another, there’s a number of communities very close to where I am.

And most of those communities have Um, uh, working to various degrees. Some of them are cooperatives, some of them have different structures, it just so happens that this particular place where I made a lot of deep friends, we’re living in a place that was owned by someone else who carried quite a strong, um, like, well, yeah, like let’s just call it like, uh, influence, uh, no, like, uh, landlord energy, you know?

Yeah. So, and, and that. Uh, what I was offering was like, okay, we can come here and I’ll [01:05:00] literally let go of ownership and we’re going to now look at power in all of its different forms so that even I can get kicked out if I, you know, if we go through these procedures and I’m, you know, I’m displaying power in a way that’s disharmonious, all this.

So like, and I wrote out this whole manifesto that was looking at all these things, decision making, conflict resolution, power structures, all that. But, um, but the dream was and is to, to also look at power in all its forms, which is like money and, and then earnings and time on the land and all this sort of stuff.

And that is further than where most people are at. And so, um, we’re, we’re still in a place of negotiating whether or not I’m going to Where the compromises are between the group and me as to what this vision is. I see. But so who lives in your land now? So it’s me and about two others, but it’s not, uh, it’s intentional community.

We’re just, they’re just staying [01:06:00] with me at the moment. And then they have their work outside? At the moment, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, so basically that thing that I went to do hasn’t happened yet, and I’m not sure Because, because, because 

Giancarlo Canavesio: of the cultural surrounding, because we’re not in Gabon, 

Bruce Parry: or in I think, no, I think what the main reason was, was because I’m, I’m strong on a vision.

And I think that I could probably find people who would be in alignment with, if I put the vision out in a book or something or a film and I get who wants to come, I could probably fill that place with people who are in alignment with that same vision. But that would also put me then at the center of it because I’d be the common denominator.

So I thought, rightly or wrongly, the best way for me to do this is actually to not It was was ultimately what I did was was I said, okay I’ll find a group people already know each other and maybe try and persuade them to come in alignment with this vision. And by 

Giancarlo Canavesio: their model. 

Bruce Parry: So yeah, to co create that together.

But what that’s meant is actually we’ve all got quite different ideas. And because [01:07:00] it’s only me that’s really carrying this very strong egalitarian thing, and other people have got their own ideas of what things could be, that that has meant that actually we’re not necessarily coalescing around one vision.

Or at least, let’s say, the vision of the hunter gatherers of the egalitarianism. There’s other things, like Eastern philosophies thrown in, and there’s all these other people bringing their own stuff, which is, of course, beautiful, but it’s, I don’t know where I’m at with that. And so But 

Giancarlo Canavesio: why, why are you so enamored with this idea of the egalitarian?

Like Tamera, for example, they have their own leaders, but they’re not, you know, it’s not a dictatorship. You know, they work harder, they, they, and they create value 

Bruce Parry: because I think that, yeah, I think that there’s definitely been many occasions where either gurus or benign dictators have held space in a really altruistic way and a beautiful way and there’s plenty of examples of that.

But the longevity of that often is interesting. You often find there’s a power vacuum when those people disappear. It’s very [01:08:00] often that the second generation, especially relatives of or bloodlines of Uh, or maybe owners of and all these things that there’s, there’s complexion there come complexity there and, and what I saw with the egalitarian space is that actually, they don’t have to go through that same.

It’s like when you really disseminate out what the what the egalitarian tribes really showed me was that anytime that power coalesces in one place or get stuck or fixed, it causes problems. And so for them, it’s all about keeping it moving, keeping it moving. And the and the the One of the biggest, uh, uh, aspects of that is, is, um, which would, you know, it’s too big a story to get into now, but it’s like, it’s, a lot of that is around women.

Actually, women coming together as a collective and, and holding the men to account and all that, which is a complex thing to talk about today. Yes. But, um, but That was one of the things that I noticed. I mean, there’s so many layers. No, but 

Giancarlo Canavesio: this is amazing. So, you know, we’re like an hour and ten and um, I want to be respectful of [01:09:00] your time and the listener time to stay around one hour.

I think we cover a lot and this is a great introductory conversation. to talk more in the next episode about, you know, how can, um, what do we know? You know, building, building community in the modern era, integrating, you know, the divine feminine you were mentioning and, and, and understanding. To what extent power should exist and should be localized and non delocalized and the education part of it and the private property part of it and the creativity part of it and, yeah, and then you just give me a new enthusiasm to continue the developing the post capitalistic societies series.

Okay, great, so, uh, Bruce, what, um, if people want to know more about you, they can. Watch The Tribes on BBC. They can watch Tawai on Mango TV. What else would you recommend for people? Not just maybe your material, but what are the maybe the books or [01:10:00] the movie that really inspire you to go on this journey?

Bruce Parry: Okay. Yeah, so books that I think if people want to like, I think that Chris Ryan who wrote, you’ll know because he wrote that book Sex at Dawn, which Which, um, which is great, but like, uh, the, the book that I really rated was, uh, Civilized to Death. He talks egalitarianism. Um, interestingly, most of the early egalitarian societies are monogamous.

He didn’t like that so much, but that’s another, that’s another conversation we can have. My friend, I know that’s a big one, um, but the, uh, but. That’s a, that’s a great book. That’s a great book. Uh, there’s two others that have come out that are interesting in this space, too. There’s, um, Brett and, uh, Heather Weinstein’s book, um, The Hunter Gatherer’s Guide to the 21st Century, which is super controversial, but, uh, but there’s stuff in it.

They don’t talk about egalitarianism. but they do talk about other stuff. And there’s another book, it’s like a trilogy in a way, of books that have come out in the last couple of [01:11:00] years, by David Graeber, who’s a well known anarchist, um, called, The Dawn of Everything, I think it is. Each of these books, there’s things that I’m not fully in alignment with, but that’s great.

But there’s definitely wisdom in all of them. He talks, he talks about a number of things, including touching on, he kind of diffuses egalitarianism a bit, um, to much more than I would. But at the same time describes how it probably continued on into civilization. So there’s, there’s definitely wonderful stuff in all of those three.

Um, and my website, well, I think to why. earth is probably the best place to go. And there’s some great, uh, interviews under the science section. And then under the next section, you can see the, uh, to what the, the Ayahuasca film and also the Ben Jelly film. 

Giancarlo Canavesio: Amazing. This is a big topic, you know, how do we live, um, together?

More harmoniously, you know, I don’t want to be one of the specimistic about, you know, there’s been great [01:12:00] Progress in our planet, but you know, if just looking at the health situation, you know, the increasing in heart disease and and and chronic disease and autoimmune disease has been like incredibly exponential since the 30s and the 40s, you know, like farming for money has brought us the industrial agriculture with no nutrients, educating for money, entertaining for money.

I mean, we. You know, with all the respect I have for the, you know, what capitalism has brought, I think we can do better. You know, like Einstein says, you know, we know there is a better world that our heart knows is possible. So thank you guys. Thank you, Bruce. And we’ll have you soon next time. Let’s not leave another two years.

Let’s not leave. Thank you. Love you, man.[01:13:00] 

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