50: Matteo Norzi on Psychosomatic Healing and The Shipibo Conibo Center

Shipibo Conibo Center

Icaros – A Vision
Shipibo Conibo
Benjamin De Loenen
ICEERS
MAPS Psychedelic Medicine
Ayahuasca Pill
Synthetic 5-MeO-DMT
Michael Pollan
Allan Watts – Quote
Anton Bilton
YouTube –  Graham Hancock – DMT trail – Alexander Beiner
Santo Diame – Ayahuasca

Shipibo Artists Exhibiting
Chonon Bensho – Buenos Aires
Sara Flores –  NYC
Celia Vasquez Yui  – Ithaca, NY
Sara Flores – Paris

Giancarlo: [00:00:00] Hello, hi, welcome to this new episode of the Mango TV podcast. Today we have again Matteo Norzi. Matteo is an artist, designer, filmmaker, and indigenous rights activist. His explorative artistic practice took him through several extensive journeys along six continents. His art has been supported by institutions such as Art in General New York, Headland Center for the Arts in California.

Spino Labanna Foundation for the Arts, Italy. As part of the collaborative duo, Isola Nordi, he has [00:01:00] exhibited internationally at venues such as Artistic Space, New York, GAM Turin, NM& M Monaco, David Roberts Art Foundation in London, Fondazione Bevilacqua La Masa in Venice. Museum Bosen and Fondazione Sandretto Re, Re Baudengo is critically acclaimed directorial debut, the feature film Icarus, a vision co directed with Leonor Caraballo, premiered in competition at the 2016 Tribeca Film Festival, bringing with him years of personal experience and extensive research on Amazonian history and culture.

Matteo is co founder and currently serving as the executive director of the Shipibo Connibo Center. Welcome Matteo. 

Speaker 3: Hey Giancarlo, thank you so much for the introduction. It feels like all life, you know, flashing in front of you before something happening. 

Giancarlo: It’s nice. It’s nice to see you. Thank you for coming back.

People can go and check previous episodes with Matteo. Today I would like to [00:02:00] go a little bit deeper on, on ayahuasca, on medicalization psychedelic in general, about integration. But let’s start first thing first, tell us a little bit more about your relationship with the Shipibo and, and you know, who they are, why, why they’re so important in general, and for you, what’s their cosmovision?

Stuff like that. 

Speaker 4: Yeah. So I was lucky enough to meet with the people in 2011 for the first time, you know, in a moment in time in which so many people from the West were kind of already feeling this attraction for the Americas, the indigenous people and their prophecies, I guess was a turning point for many of us at the same time was basically the beginning of a spiritual tourism.

So it’s kind of like, Looking back now, almost like 14 years later, and it is it was very different scenario than it is now. So I went there for the first time like lost in my first major [00:03:00] midlife crisis. And with no experience whatsoever with other kinds of psychedelics, I, you know, together with my dear friend, Leonor Carabaggio, we went there to drink ayahuasca and that’s how these journey began for, for me and it’s since then it never ended yet.

I’m still involved every day with shipibo ideas and activism and, 

Killers and artists and so on. 

Giancarlo: But what, what, what, what taught you about them specifically? Why you decide to devote your life in creating a Shipibo center in New York and representing their artists and stuff like that? 

Speaker 4: Look, the thing that struck me the most is the sophistication of their culture, you know, which is so much well expressed by the designs, you know, of Kene, of these like sacred patterns that the Shipibo artists adopt and paint.

And, you know, and that is kind of like a. symbol of these incredible sophistication that extends to [00:04:00] any unique understanding of the human condition. So you know, for me, it became a personal journey at the same time, also in parallel, you know, a very social, public journey and, and, and became a formal to find a service, you know, to a way to give service with my life.

Giancarlo: But so, but so when you say vision of the human condition, can you, can you summarize it? Can you explain it? What, you know, I imagine that like most of these indigenous culture, they have this concept of animism, right? Which, yeah. Everything is connected. The, the, the, the river is my brother, but can you elaborate a little bit on that?

Speaker 4: Yeah. So basically I want to start by the patterns, you know, because I think that’s the key, you know, entrance, you know, you need to see, you know, this is very sophisticated culture that has no other kind of written language and decides to cover everything with shipibo design. [00:05:00] So, you know, so, so many people, you know they’ve been asking themselves.

So what do they mean? You know, What is this all about? And I think in the quest for these answers, you know, it’s a good way to reply to your question. So basically I think there are three levels of of understanding of three different ways to understand the patterns. One is like let’s say aesthetic, you know, the ship people express.

This beauty that is the beauty of, of, of the energy of life growing. So, you know, they cover everything with these designs exactly like, you know, the tree is spreading out it’s branches to capture the sun, or let’s say a colony of moss is covering a stone, you know, this very same idea of life.

Displaying itself in space and that the beauty that is kind of like [00:06:00] associated with it. It’s a way to understand the statics of the ship people. The second element, which is The one that brings you back to talking about ayahuasca, it is the synesthetic dimension. So the ship people declare with these designs, the existence of a dimension in which sound can become vision, you know, sound signals.

can pop up as little dots of color, you know? And so, you know, it’s kind of like a, a testimony of the existence of these real, you know, that can be accessed with plant medicines and other means. And then the third one that for me is the most important really is an ethical dimension. So the patterns are also a visual manifesto for indigenous ethics and, you know, and these ethics talks about reciprocity and also service to use a word I already mentioned, you know, it’s a, [00:07:00] it’s kind of like a.

a compromise to sacrifice the ego to put yourself at the service of kin. But then this kin extends beyond the human, extends to animal, to plant, To revert to the forest. And all of a sudden, you know, you have a way to understand the animism in a way that is useful to the address the climate catastrophes that we’re living, you know, so it’s almost like a, a spiritual understanding of ecology that basically gives you new tools to imagine ecological solutions that are not anthropomorphic.

You know, and so in that sense I feel that she people ideas are very relevant for, for the, for the future. And so, again besides the, the, the need of putting myself at service to solve my own personal issues, you know, as many others do, you know, you [00:08:00] find something that is so relevant.

Maybe for the future of my own kids, you know, and the next generation. So all that together, it became for me some sort of like mission. And now I have a strong reason to wake up in the morning, which is, you know, bringing forward the mission of the organization that I direct, the Shippu Bokunibo Center.

Giancarlo: Beautiful. But so on the principle number two, the equal, the synesthesia where, you know, like you can see. Color and here you can, you can hear color and see notes and it says it’s like a different realm, but can you elaborate a little bit? What do you mean by different realm? 

Speaker 4: So here we talk about healing and medicine.

So the ship people have these technologies that are a mixture of substances that they ingest and actions that the healers adopts that include singing and the use of perfume and of other devices that in [00:09:00] combination, they lead to access a dimension of the mind in which transformation occurs.

is possible. So basically it is exactly like the reason, I don’t know, the a disease that can be intended at psychosomatic. They should people kind of like master a psychosomatic medicine. So something that through, you know, the mind. Is able to trigger transformation in the body and, or at least a level of awareness in the body that is very hard to access otherwise.

So you know, that is a synesthetic space. And they believe the ship people that when you are sick, your designs lost order. So the work of the healer is to unravel them and replace them with orderly ones. You know, and so much of us, you know, can understand this as a metaphor, but you know, it’s probably even something more than a metaphor.

It’s really a [00:10:00] condition of the nervous system of the lymphatic system. And, you know, and whenever you’re. body is stressed, you know, more than usual because of the psychedelic experience. So the stiff points in the system are made evident. And in that sense, it become also diagnostic tool of a self diagnostic tool to understand, for example, where your body needs to be taken care of.

Giancarlo: And so the healing happens on a, on an energetic frequency level. 

Speaker 4: Yeah. So basically, then I want to remind that you know, the drinking of ayahuasca for the patient is something relatively recent. You know, ayahuasca is really a medicine that the doctor drinks, not the patient. So it is more like a spiritual x ray or a diagnostic tool that the shaman adopts in order to [00:11:00] see where your issues are.

You know, where you store pain, you know, many of us, many of us have maybe, I don’t know, back pain, chronic back pain, but that is probably has often a psychological origin. You know, maybe we were not able to overcome a grief that happened at some point in our life. And so we kind of take that pain and store it.

In that place. So basically, you know the idea of the patient drinking ayahuasca is quite a recent one. So the shaman basically take ayahuasca to access these energetic field that you mentioned in order to see where your physical issue lays, you know, many of us have a back pain of like. chronic pain for, and often we, we go to the orthopedic, you know, and somehow maybe that is instead a consequence of grief or some other trauma.

And we [00:12:00] store that Pain in the body. And, you know, and the West fails to understand that by dividing the body in different organs and compartments. And the people that have these wisdom of addressing issue as they were part of a whole. So, you know holistically. So, you know, whenever there is, I don’t know, there is no distinction between mind and body the same way that we, we, we could try to distinguish them with our understanding of Western medicine.

So this is just like a, an example of what I was, I mean, with the psychosomatic medicine or treatment, you know, when I talk about ayahuasca. 

Giancarlo: Yes, but I’m very curious. Sorry to be so specific, but I understand the spiritual x ray, but then once the you know the pain, the, the, the constant, the, the psychological knots, the concentration has been fined either in your stomach or in your back, you know, as a consequence of store trauma, then how to the best [00:13:00] of, you know, maybe we don’t even have the language to explain, but how would you, put the I understand the diagnosis, but then how is the therapy?

Speaker 4: Well, that’s a good question. You know, usually the therapy includes other plants beyond ayahuasca. So, you know, in order to become a healer, you know shipibo practitioners, they go through a long plant diets, you know, and then they tell you, you know, I learn. The properties of the plant from the plant themselves.

And many of us keep on asking, what does that mean? And I think the solution it’s, it’s kind of like simpler than we can possibly, you know, you know, Phantom, it is simply because if you take a plant and you are very self aware of your body and you feel that that plant is kind of like having an effect on your liver, all of a sudden, you know, that when somebody else, If also has a liver problem, you know, might want to try to take that [00:14:00] plan to, to, to solve that issue.

So you know, usually ayahuasca is a diagnostic tool. And then after the issue is identified, you know, the patient is given different plans in order to treat it. 

Giancarlo: Yeah. This is super interesting and is widely misunderstood in the West. 

Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It is. At the same time, ayahuasca is also a self diagnostic tool.

And often since we’ve mentioned that some of these issues are psychological, just by knowing that you are storing pain in your back, You might have access to ways to release it. So, you know, I, now I contradict myself. You, ayahuasca is a, is a, is a diagnostic tool, but it can also be a medicine because by being aware of what you have, then you access ways to release it.

Giancarlo: Yeah, yeah. No, it’s, it’s, it’s very clear. It’s very clear. [00:15:00] Okay. So, you know, I had on the podcast Ben Delonan from IC ears and like you, he’s done a lot of healing with the, with the Shipibo, he calls them energetic surgeon. And and he says that, you know, in the West, now that we medicalize those plants, you know, mushroom may be first, but DMT, there’s all this trial to, to medicalize this compound, you know, we believe that, It’s a, it’s a, it’s an object.

It’s like a pill, but the reality is that this is medicine is not an object. It’s a process and it take the Shipibo a long time to use this medicine because he actually, they needs to go back in your ancestry. They work on your family line. Do you resonate with this description and can you maybe comment and elaborate on that?

Speaker 4: Yeah. So let’s say that. First of all, Ayahuasca is a way to access your subconscious. [00:16:00] So it’s interesting to understand how the Shipibo, for example, intend the subconscious, how they talk about it. So for them, the subconscious is a flooded dimension, like, you know, the flooded forest of the Amazon is the, an underworld that is submerged.

You know, it’s kind of like made of water. So it’s a mental space that is murky and it’s like a riverbed is also profuse of dangerous creatures, you know, like monsters and, and you know, that kind of living darkness and lurks within, but at the same time is also a source of knowledge. Where only the most powerful shamans can dive into, you know, in order to draw the solutions for others in their community.

So basically everyone carries around their own demons, you know, exactly like, you know, in our understanding of subconscious, you know, there is these. Space of the mind in which, you know, these creatures and entity [00:17:00] live with us. But at the same time, it also the space where the ancestors lived. So you were talking about ancestral trauma.

So it’s, so it’s also the place in which the wisdom of the ancestors continue to resonate. You know, and when I talk about race on data, I like to make it appear like a vibration. They keep on spreading generation after generation. So it is really, you know, a place in which the boys. Of, of, of, of, of, of the people who precede us, keep on, you know, echoing, you know, and, and for them, these are the ship people of the mind are like idealistic figures, you know, that have like incredible manners and beautiful designs and living out of body with with nature.

So it’s kind of like for them themselves. It is a space of with an idealistic view of indigeneity, you know, that is no [00:18:00] longer part of, of the everyday life, but at the same time, it is a space to strive towards. So I go back and close the loop and talk about the ethical aspect. So, you know, in this space of the mind in which the ancestor lives is also where the idea of time draw upon to imagine their own future, you know, and to kind of like teach to the next generation, the ethical behaviors and, and, and for their own future.

And this is all somehow what a ship people feels every time that sees a ship people pattern, you know, it’s like a visual manifesto of this connection with the past and this compromise. To implement it in the future. So you know, I dunno exactly if I answer to your question, but what I wanna say is that these subconscious it becomes [00:19:00] a place in which you can dive into in specific moment of your life.

When you need to overcome some personal issue, you know, so let’s say if to use a Western word, you know, when you have a mental health problem, you die, you know, like a scuba diver with the with the shaman that holds your hand, go down and see these like sea creatures interact with them. And hopefully try to solve an issue that you have with them and you come on the other side, exactly like it happened to me at the service of something larger than yourself.

Because so often the personal problem find solution in the community, in putting yourselves You know feeling yourself as part of something bigger than yourself. And for the people that is very evident. And I think many of us who go to the Amazon to drink ayahuasca can, can, can, can confirm that, you know, that’s so often they go there, they have [00:20:00] so much caught up with their own problems and they come the other, the other side, where I don’t know, with a new ecological understanding, with a new social.

Instinct with the idea of giving, you know, and all of a sudden, you know, the ayahuasca makes you feel that you’re part of something bigger than yourself and your clan. 

Giancarlo: But so let’s see with a specific example. So imagine a little boy who’s you know, It’s like six, seven, eight. And the mother leaves the household because it’s too much for her.

She was not equipped to be a mother. And then he ended up a series of, you know, conflictual and destructive relationship. And, you know, these little boy heart keep on closing, closing, closing, and he’s not equipped to have a loving relationship. And he goes through a series of, you know, destructive relationship is cannot have a girlfriend, cannot open his heart.

And he wants to address these. So, so the shipibo. you know, takes the ayahuasca, [00:21:00] do the spiritual x ray and see in the murky river of the boy’s subconscious, all this pain and the demons of his childhood that, you know, was not allowed to interact healthy and, and, and, and that was, that was not equipped to, to, to open his heart and to be vulnerable with another woman.

So what’s, who does the work? How does the, how does the shipibo deals? With those monster of this boy childhood. 

Speaker 4: Yeah. I mean, a quick answer is with love. So I know I’m going to kind of like elaborate. So let’s say that ayahuasca brings you exactly where you need to go. You know, that’s the power of the medicine.

So you drink these little boy drinks ayahuasca and goes in the first ceremony in the Amazon and he’s in front of his. biggest fear, the traumatic experience, you know, it’s an exploration of his own emotional memory and he’s re [00:22:00] living the moment in which, you know, some specific situation generated these trauma.

However, in this moment, he’s not alone. The shaman is next to him, is singing to him a song of courage, is spreading the perfume of flowers, and it is expressing universal love and empathy. So all of a sudden, you know, these Traumatic memory gets re projected over rewired over a new experience.

And it’s also so intense because you know, this boy, maybe it was drinking ayahuasca the first time. And I always mentioned that the first ceremonies are much more powerful than any other you are going to have in your life. So, and, and in that sense, You know, that memory is overwritten with a new one in which there is this song of love, this sense of belonging, you [00:23:00] know, this idea of being part of a community.

And he wakes up after the ceremony and he’s made aware of the trauma that he’s. His mind had removed. And not only that, he has only different temperature around it, the different mood. And all of a sudden it’s not so threatening to him. And so he can use it through integration and, you know and other tools to made it.

Evident and worked out and often, you know, the, the problem can be addressed in a new way. 

Giancarlo: But so let me ask you this. You said that when this subconscious painful material is, is, is highlighted and brought to the surface, then the, the shaman channel this, you call it, you know, cosmic love and cosmic empathy.

Speaker 3: Yeah. 

Giancarlo: So where is that coming from? That’s a universal force of the [00:24:00] universe that they channel like a channeler. 

Speaker 4: Of course. I mean, the, the, the, the love exists, you know, the, the ship people, they, they themselves drink ayahuasca while they’re curious. So they access these these feeling of the energy of life from the Cosmo, from the Cosmo.

I mean, they say to use their own words, they say she people designs appear in every level of the Cosmo. You know, you can see them on the shell of an egg. If you look very carefully, you can see them in the sky of the Milky Way. So, you know, there is these kind of like parallelism in between the order in nature and the order of, of that is required in order to have a healthy life inside our own, our, our own mind.

So I go back to that kind of like beautiful metaphor. You know, when you have an issue, you lost. [00:25:00] the order of your patterns. So the work of the shaman is to draw them again with new orderly patterns. But these patterns obviously pre exist, you know, they, they exist, you know, in all levels of nature and in all expressions of organic life.

Giancarlo: Yeah. Yeah. You know, you can say that love in a way might be synonymous of consciousness. And now this new quantum physicists, they are like proposing a new way to look at the structure of reality, including consciousness as a basic pillar with time and space. So what I’m trying to discuss with you is that, is it possible that It’s a, it’s a spiritual exercise.

They’re bringing down something from a different world. 

Speaker 4: Yeah, it’s a, it’s a, it’s a way to access source. So this is another interesting stuff, you know? So the Shipibo, they kind of [00:26:00] like cherish a golden age I mentioned before in which the ancestors were dressing so elegantly and they were living in harmony with nature.

And then they kind of like. lament, uh, the current time is, is the moment in which, you know, these incredible customs are no longer available. However, they also say that through plant medicine, you can access That space of the mind in which all these things are still existing. So basically it is not simply a question of tradition or loss in tradition.

It is a question of storing precious charge and knowledge in a secure space from which through the shamanic journey, you can. access wisdom and almost download it, bring it back [00:27:00] to this world. So there is no need of remember everything. As long as you have the sonic key, they say, you know, it’s a, it’s a Nicaro, it’s a song, the sony key to open that.

source, and then you can use whatever it’s inside at your disposal without obviously abusing it. There’s always, you know, there’s also tension in between abusing the power that plants give you. 

Giancarlo: Yeah. 

Speaker 4: So it’s a spiritual practice. It’s a spiritual practice. There is a word. That is all covered with design that I think many of us who did the psychedelics can recognize as a portal that you can pass through in order to access your own emotional memory, but also, you know, your generational emotional memory, also the emotional memory of your.

of your clan, you know, going back thousands of years. And when you access that, you know, the patterns kind of like open up and all of a sudden you have like very [00:28:00] figurative visions, you know, with your, your grandmother, or, you know, maybe some, some, some divinity or some spirit of a plant and all these entities then become.

Things that you can engage with, ask questions and receive novel answers. So I don’t think the right question, if I understand well, where you want to go, is that, is this in my mind or it is these and other dimensional together? I think there is no difference between these two real because in our mind, we have access to another dimension altogether.

Giancarlo: Yeah, yeah, yeah. On a, on a, on a non dual world, it’s just a question of semantic. Exactly. Okay, so, is it fair to say that, you describe Ayahuasca practice, but You know, if you, if you look at Maria Sabina and and the Aztec and people that have been working with the sacred magic mushroom is probably similar practice, 

Speaker 4: right?

Yeah. So that is what another, I mean, I work a lot with [00:29:00] Shipibo artists, so I’m going to like bring back the component of art. What is so striking about the shamanic journey that is so. Ancient that links, you know cultures from the very different parts of the world, probably because it was the spiritual practice of homo sapiens before it spread around the globe.

You know, even back then, you know, they were kind of like using the shamanic journey to reach other worlds. And what is cinema? You know, say you’re a producer, we did cinematic work together, you know, what is cinema, if not another attempt to reach another world, you know, to imagine another, another world, the same for, you know, art a play or virtual reality.

All these are just. basically reiteration of the shamanic journey. And what is very fantastic of the Shipibo that maybe is not so evident in other culture, that [00:30:00] arts, healing arts, and spirituality, they were all born from the hands of the Nerbalist, very probably a woman that Creating this tincture would paint design, but also drink them.

The word, the word URA in Latin still keeps this interesting ambiguity in between color and medicine. 

Giancarlo: Interesting. 

Speaker 4: And, and so the tincture, you know the word is the etymology of this word. We can. Kind of like see how there is no difference from the, let’s say the prequel of art, the prequel of spirituality, the prequel of medicine.

It was all basically part of these shamanic space that the shaman, for example, would journey to the other dimension to find the lost soul of a person that was sick. And if the shaman was [00:31:00] successful in bringing back the soul, the patient would re re recover. If the shaman was unsuccessful, the patient would die.

You know, and this is like very much applies to disease and how we can describe disease even today, you know, even in the setting of a hospital. 

Giancarlo: Fascinating. Are you familiar with the magic mushroom? 

Speaker 4: I’m not an 

Giancarlo: expert. 

Speaker 4: I had done a few magic mushroom trips by myself, but I need to say that I, I, I, I like to focus on practices in which the compound goes also along with the work of the shaman.

So you, you, you, you mentioned Maria Sabina, I don’t know much about their songs, but I feel that even in that culture, it was not simply ingesting the, the, the, the, the mushroom, but there was always also some singing or like playing drums involved in order to kind of like create a sonic ladder to reach these other dimensions.[00:32:00] 

Giancarlo: Exactly. Exactly. It’s all about, no, it’s not all about, but there is this component of other dimension to download and access, you know, source of divinity. So what do you think about you know, maps is now, I think we just received the result of of phase three of MDMA. So in the, in the, in the psychedelic business world, they say that If they’re gonna turn MDMA into medicine in 2024 next will be psilocybin in 2025.

So the way that MAPS and other, you know, Compass is a multi billion dollar company, quoted in NASDAQ. They’ve been, they’re doing clinical trial with mushroom all around the world. So this medicine, this compound will become a medicine. And the way, the way that, you know, there’s different model, but basically maps that training a new generation of psychotherapists that will be, will have the permission [00:33:00] to give this mushroom to their patients.

So people will not be able to buy themselves in the pharmacy, but you know, like, like prescription drugs. Now, if you want Prozac, you have to go to the psychiatrist and they give you the prescription and then you can buy it. For mushroom, maybe you can’t even buy it. You probably have to do it somewhere under the supervision of the, of the therapist, but anyhow, the medicalization of mushroom is happening.

There is a lot of clinical trial with fake ayahuasca. You know, they, if they find a way to. Put Ayahuasca and capsule. There was a barrier of, of the impurity test from the FDA, but now the several companies been working on that. So soon. Soon we will have also ayahuasca appeals they’re working on. Yes, ayahuasca appeals.

They’re also working on on D-M-T-F-D-M-T. So those compound have been turned into medicine. So according to how you [00:34:00] explain the way indigenous work with it, how do you see this transition into insurance backed hospital doctor prescribing this medicine? How do you, how do you see that happening?

Speaker 4: Look, I’ve been following this this for a long time. So I need to say that we got to an important point. So I want to start with a positive note. I think the strategy of, of like a medicalization was was good. And I’m so happy that these compounds are going to be made available. So this is my first however, I think also we reach a point in which we need to start asking different questions, you know, because you know, we kind of already secured it, you know, MDMA is going to be available.

Mushroom is next, ayahuasca is next. So, you know, what are the implication? You know, now I think the discourse needs to be come a bit more sophisticated. So, and the question is. How can the scientific method go about the takeover of the very ways of knowing who’s dismissal from the real of truth [00:35:00] making based on its constitutional motive.

So I want to say how we now use science to take upon the very practices that distinguish against, you know, in the beginning of its own invention. So, you know, they say, I know those are charlatans, those are shamans, those are demons, you know, and now all of a sudden science is taking over these very practices and compound.

Speaker 3: But 

Giancarlo: it’s not, but it’s not, you see, Matteo, this is my point, basically what they’re talking about in this circle. And then we go to the part of integration, basically in, in, in the, in the, in the Western health system, they’re not talking about downloading love from, from source. They’re talking about resolving biographical material.

Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah. So they took spirit out completely. Correct. You know, for. company replaced the vegetal alkaloids with a [00:36:00] synthetic lookalike. They patterned them and they take the spirit away, you know, and then, you know, what do we have, you know, and, and again, Is it going to work? Is it going to work? You think?

To me, it’s not the, you know, I think it’s the attitude of the West to find a fix. You know, it’s again, going into that kind of like Space of, of mind in which you swallow the pill and you get the treatment and we keep on avoiding what we started this conversation from, we’re talking about the process, talking about the mess and scene of the ceremony.

You know, I, I invite my, my friends to go to the Amazon to drink ayahuasca in place of like just drinking in the U S because the sound of the jungle, the fact that you are displaced, the fact that you are. Placed in a, in a new environment in which alone, maybe in which you need to kind of like reinvent a way to take care of yourself.

All these aspects, including the very non scientific work of the shaman, the [00:37:00] songs and the shaman sings in order to ride the energy of the moment. None of these can be replicated. You know, in the, in the doctor office in a city like New York or London. So I think we are gonna, again, imagine something that is like attractive as the discovering America, you know, the discovery theory is driving enthusiasm, but at the same time, we.

Commit again, epistemic seed, you know, we are killing system of knowledges at the same time because we exclude them from the places in which these can generate wealth and, and, and, and can contaminate with other system of knowledges. Indigenous practitioners are once again left aside and in the U S.

You know, in this very moment, you know, as we, for example, start using magic mushroom, the medical [00:38:00] setting, we have plenty of nothing, Native American communities struggling with alcoholism, having lost access to the very medicines that they. told us about. 

Giancarlo: Yes, yes, yes. I think we’d have to do a third episode about, you know, appropriation, colonialism and reciprocity.

That’s another big topic, but I would like to stay on the I would like to stay on the healing part. Widow without shaman, because it is true and we, you know, I’ve done it many times, you know, even mushroom or even LSD on my own during the night, it can be, it can look a many different way, but in the morning.

There’s always this clarity. And so, you know, science says that, you know, the tryptamine, so the salosabine, LSD, mescaline the DMT, they basically reduce the default mode [00:39:00] network, the activity of the default mode network, which is associated to your biographical material, you know, like Michael Pollan call it the, the egoic armor.

So it is true. That you go towards a dumping of your ego. And so in the morning, without all the story of who you think you are, you feel free from those trauma, those childhood trauma of that boy who created a story of I cannot love. because I’ve never been loved. So it’s true that the benefits remain.

But my question is this, I think that I also agree that this medicalization is super welcome and is going to alleviate a lot of suffering. What I would like to discuss now is As you might know, there is, you know, around this business of psychedelic, there’s a lot of, you know, group, association, individual that are now offering [00:40:00] integration.

So what does it look like integration? Now I’m going to do a course myself to, to, it’s, it’s, it’s an integration course for, for facilitator that want to, to help patient integrate. So I had a couple of people on the podcast and I’m asking and I’m listening. And, you know, of course. You hear a lot of very good idea on, on, on how to integrate, how to create space, how to stay with the clarity, how to address how to develop better habits that preserve the feeling.

There’s lots of different, a very good idea, but they’re all centered. around integrating the biographical material that has been revealed. This idea, which I think was the third principle from the Shipibo, this idea of ethical behavior and feel connected to other I mean, maybe you can also receive that.

But, you know, what I’m trying to say is that I [00:41:00] ask some of this integrator, if you want what do you do when people have an encounter with the, with the with another being, with an entity, with a monster? How do you, you know, we don’t have the ontology. to understand that, to understand that. You know, we live on a, on a, our scientific framework is based on a secular materialism on, on, on, on this idea that, you know, the universe is this big, gigantic clock that there is no source.

There is no, there’s not spirit. So, you know, it’s funny because how do you, it’s such a contradiction in term for me, where, you know, you have this white Western man that go to the Amazon. take this plant, medicalize them because it’s good for our mental issue. But then the moment that there is spirit that emerge under the form of different entity or, or [00:42:00] interdimensional beings, then at that moment, all this integration specialist, they say, Oh, this is not for me.

This is the shaman responsibility. But so how crazy it is, you take a practice, which is ultimately created around spirit, as we discuss in the first 25 minutes of this conversation, you medicalize it, you integrate it in the West, then you, you integrate the effect. And when The main, one of the main pillar of the old practice emerged.

Then you go back to the Amazon. It’s, there’s something not flowing in this approach. Totally, 

Speaker 4: totally. I mean, and 

Giancarlo: you 

Speaker 4: know, our society is kind of like also divides what can be scientifically measured. And then on the other side, there is faith, you know, for, for whoever has it, you know, and instead, you know, here we are talking about experience.

So, and, and that’s why I think integration, even if it is not really part of [00:43:00] the understanding of the shipibo, I think it’s a great add on and it becomes a big tool because as you will say, there is an ontological clash or at least, you know, in between that world of experience in which, you know, you dive in a, in a dimension in which, you know, things.

That you experience, you don’t have the tools to measure or you don’t have the tools to believe, you know, so, so you need to kind of like stay with the mystery also somehow, you know, and, and and since the mystery is so unsettling, you know, because it becomes another question. So I feel that there is the need of grounding yourself back to reality.

Especially if you do not decide to leave your lifestyle behind, but you want to go back to the very society that unbalanced you to begin with, because that’s the other question. You know, integration is a. A tool of the system. Again, you [00:44:00] know, you go to drink ayahuasca, then you, you feel that you want to cut off with all your basically previous life.

But at the same time, you are forced by socially, by the family, by, by, by relationships to go back. So you need to kind of like. Do this exercise in translation, you know, and another person would say, okay, after this experience, I don’t believe in capitalism anymore. And I want to basically be part of a different kind of society that is more integrated with nature.

You know, that’s the real, the feeling that we all have after, after these experiences. And then since we drag ourselves back to the. Life that we know, you know, there is a beautiful quote by Alighiero Boetti, this Italian artist, live the certain for the uncertain, you know, are we really ready to do that?

You know that’s the question. And I go back you know, to talk a little bit about micro dosing versus High doses, you know, many people praise microdosing and I feel also that [00:45:00] there is a some positive outcome when you do it, but these are like transformative tools. So they need to trigger something that shakes you profoundly, you know, you know, and in that sense.

You know, even if, yes, you can take mushroom by yourself and I’m sure that after, you know, while you also build some experience in how to do that. So I don’t want to say that it’s impossible to benefit from doing much of it. However, the setting of a ceremony in which you come together, in which you follow the guidance of somebody that has more experience than yourself.

And there is also, you know, this love that was mentioning somebody Singing a song of love, you know, and and belonging. I think all those tools together, they guide you more directly to where you need to go. Let’s say that no matter what, after you take mushroom, after four hours, You are a cast on an island and you are like [00:46:00] enjoying the bliss of this, of the beach.

However, with the shaman, you can have a journey that has a captain, you know, without you are adrift, you know, you’re going around the waves of, of, of the night, you know, and maybe you can see some stars for yourself and yes, you are going to end up anyway, safe on the beach, you know, enjoying the morning sun.

But I feel that if you are guided, you know, you are going to kind of like. Take much more from this experience and he’s going to, he’s going to kind of like go directly where you need to go and be less chaotic and sometimes also less frightening if you take a high dose. 

Giancarlo: Yes. Yes. That’s a good metaphor of the captain.

I think Alan Watts says that the psychedelic is like a boat that take you on the other side of the river. But then once you’re on the other side, the journey continue on foot. 

Speaker 3: Yeah. 

Giancarlo: And this, this this idea of having a captain that, you know, leave you in the [00:47:00] right place on the other side of the river, it’s, it’s a good metaphor.

Allow me to dig a little bit more on this idea of, of spirituality. Do you ever had in your personal journey, like a mystical experience? 

Speaker 4: Yeah. I mean, I was grew up as a monotheist, you know, I have, my father is Jew, my mother is Christian and, you know, and one, one of the things that was always given for granted, there was this one God, you know, and then, you know, when I, I went to, into the ayahuasca world for the first time, I found myself in front of the mirror.

So now I do not believe it. in monotheism, not because I want to be against religion simply because I experienced the multiplicity of the mystical experience. I’ve seen how many different beings and manifestations the, they exist in the world of spirit. So for, for me now, it’s not even a question of faith anymore.

I mean, I can accept that maybe there is a God or a force that is stronger than any, [00:48:00] any, anything else. But at the same time, Because of the mystical experience, I kind of like open to a space of the mind in which I can function without having all the answers, you know, in which mystery is something that I kind of like keep in my heart and, and, and go to, you know, every time that I need, you know, I kind of like go back to the world that is not so cool.

Clear cut in which there is space for not understanding completely for understanding the human condition as something very limited in a huge universe. And actually, if that may be used to frighten me now, it gives me comfort because I kind of like know that I can go back to linger with that sense of being a limited.

intelligence in a universe in which intelligence manifests in many different forms. 

Giancarlo: Nice. Nice. [00:49:00] You mentioned source, but so how does the concept of source and the concept of spirit world interact 

Speaker 4: for you? I mean the ship people talk about the word of the spirit as a dimension is all covered with soccer geometry.

So it is also, you know, the ancestral past. It is also the future you need to strive towards. It is basically a space that you can access. To find out where you need to go as a person, you know, how to design your own destiny also, you know, so I don’t know exactly how to explain it. It’s another parallel dimension.

Maybe, maybe it is also, you know, manifesting somewhere in the, in the universe is a parallel dimension. Maybe there is a a way to enter a portal and reach that dimension without leaving with your body earth. [00:50:00] I don’t know exactly where these locates, but I know that the idea that I can keep on going back to ayahuasca to access it gives me comfort.

And I know that so many other time in my life. I’m going to be able to do that in order to kind of like solve my mental issues of the moment, you know? So I don’t think, you know, drinking ayahuasca is a conclusion of a path, but I think it’s a great tool and I think it is important to respect it as something you can go back to whenever you need the most without abusing it.

Giancarlo: Okay. Forgive me. I’m going to ask one last question about this. Do you feel that in order to access the spirit world, in order to maximize, I mean, that’s such a Western concept, but do you think that there is a, you know, like an athlete that goes to the Olympic, right? You know, he’s [00:51:00] the outcome is the training.

Can you prepare in a way that would improve the outcome of your journey with the diet, with the meditation? 

Speaker 4: Of course. I mean, diet is fundamental because, you know, otherwise you end up like throwing up excessively in the maloca and the discomfort in the body takes away from the experience. So arriving to the journey with like a healthy body, I think is fundamental.

That’s number one. The other thing that I like to mention that works for me, you know, that. Especially because I feel that ayahuasca so much about the energy of the life growing. You know, I feel that if in our own world, the parent take care of the children, you know, and some, sometimes, you know, give them access to privilege or to, you know, to their own lifestyle and education.

I feel that in the spirit world is the opposite. The children protect the parent. So for [00:52:00] example, I think about my kids, you know, before going into the Malacca and I feel that like protective forces for me, you know, because I kind of like for me, it was such a difficult decision, the one of becoming a parent, but ayahuasca played a big role in that, you know, it gave me the courage and now it gives me also the grounding to surpass my own mental issue because I know that These spiritual beings, you know, these, like the children that I have in my life are there also to lighten me up, to make me feel less problems and so on.

So I think you can prepare by setting up an intention and an intention is exactly like a mantra. It’s something that you need to have there. It’s something you can repeat in a moment in which you feel lost. So it might happen that you don’t feel lost in the journey. I wish you only happy journeys, but if there is a moment in which all of a sudden you [00:53:00] don’t know where you are or you feel very much out of place, remember two things.

The first one is that you, you, you had the medicine. So it’s not just like you’re going crazy. You always need to remember that you. Just had drink the medicine. The second one is your intentions, why you did it. If you enter that space casually, you know, it might be that you don’t have that tool to grab upon, you know, in a moment of need.

So the intention helps you so much when you are kind of like lost in the chaos of the psychedelic experience, you can grab. Onto it and, and, you know, and refine yourself, you know, refine your balance and then, you know, open up to go where the journey needs to take you. 

Giancarlo: Sorry, I’m really enjoying this. I’m picking your brain.

But so for example, in the DMT world, you know, without the ayahuasca, when you just smoke the DMT, it’s quite interesting because I heard quite opposite outcome. You know, some people would feel [00:54:00] welcomed by the DMT entities. You know, Terrence McCain, I will call them, you know, the machine elves and some people, many people that I know, they felt not welcome at all.

You know, they felt like, you know, don’t come back. You don’t belong here. And some people feel calm, calm. How would you explain 

Speaker 4: that? I mean, I don’t know, but I have a trick that I learned from the ship. You know, whenever you meet an entity, you need to engage with them. You need to be proactive. Let’s say that you go to an island where there is a population that you don’t know.

The first thing you need to, you need to kind of like express that you are coming in peace. So, you know, so you need to do that, you know, because these, these, these, these people don’t know who you are in that moment also. So it’s very important to present yourself. And to, to say, I, can I come in and then, you know, if they let you get closer, then you say, please welcome closer to me.

I’m not a threat for you. You are not a threat for me. Exchange [00:55:00] something that, you know, takes away the, the sense of dangers from both. Sides. So I think, you know, you need to do that. Otherwise you leave the interaction to you know, the, the, the chances. Instead, if you kind of like bow to them, you know, be grateful for them to show up, recognize also the fact that our forms of intelligence, you know, I, you know, with that speed, with that.

Openness. I think you can then start engaging with them and even asking questions, who you are, why you are here, where you are. You can kind of like start establishing those connections. The problem with smoking DMT that the experience is too short. So, and often too violent. So I feel that people are scared or scared away.

From the entities, because they don’t have time to establish this kind of connection I’m talking about. So that’s why I prefer ayahuasca because through the guts, it kind [00:56:00] of like opens to another emotional dimension that goes along with the mental one. So you feel things more than you just see them. And, and I think many of those like kind of like say question marks on how to interact with the, with these entities.

are no longer relevant because you have the time to explore the space and feel it. And, you know, and, and in a way that is hard to do with the quick trip of the DMT smoke. 

Giancarlo: Yes. And you know, like our friend, Anton Bilton has sponsored a clinical trial at the Imperial College of London, where they give DMT with the anesthetic machine intravenous up to one hour.

So for people that are curious, I will put here on the show notes, an interview with Graham Hancock, and I forgot his name now, the guy who actually invented this technology. And they interview four or five [00:57:00] Sakonaut that went under the extended state DMT. And they all report encounter with different entities, different nature.

And Alexander Beiner was one of the one of the volunteer. He actually suggested this sort of a training to meet the entity, which has to do with preparing your own body, but also. You know, live in radical integrity. So this is a, it’s a complicated topic, but you know, even Dr. King was saying that, you know, there is a moral, there is, he was saying the moral arc of the universe.

It varies very wide, but it exists. Like in the structure of society, of the cosmos, there is a sense of what is right and what is wrong. So if, if, if morality is a fundamental part of the structure of reality, is it possible that if we lead our life in, in integrity and [00:58:00] in a moral conduct, we have better access to this spirit world?

Speaker 4: So I want to comment upon something first. So this is another example of the discovery doctrine applied to this very interesting experiment, by the way, of like intravenous DMT, because the ship people, they know, they know that these entities by name, you know, they, they tell you, you know, the CMP, the same people, you know, they have a call.

Cosmo vision for these beings that you see in, in the world. So, you know, it would be interesting. I don’t know if they’re going to be open, but it would be interesting to have a, a very experienced she people shaman be the person who leads these experiments, but these are always a difficulty for the people who do these kinds of experiments to understand this is number one.

The other thing is that when I, I say about When I talk about let’s say the moral aspect of the experience, I don’t want to give a sense that there is a way of being that is [00:59:00] completely ethical. I think each one of us has the good and the bad. And I think even the shipibo, you know, they know that, that you know, the experience brings you in front of.

You know, temptation continuously to act out of a space of ethics. And at the same time, you know, as part of your intention, You need to be able to choose, you know, the way of light, but it doesn’t mean that you don’t experience, you know the dark part of yourself. I think it’s very important to understand that Shippibo shamans are not gurus, you know, actually they don’t even tell you that they are, they, they, they like to be represented as, as anacondas and jaguars.

So those are like, they themselves. Tell you, we are predators in these world of the spirit. You know, we are warriors. We are, but at the same time, we kind of need to [01:00:00] sacrifice these impulse of the self. in order for our community to benefit, to live in health. So I think it’s important to understand the shamanic journey is something that you, you take to explore your darkness.

And hopefully to reaffirm that it’s better to go the other way, you know, and to me, it happened personally, you know, I, I went very deep. Once I kind of overdosed with mushroom, I take nine grams by myself, you know without knowing, I started eating these chocolates and I had a very, very, very intense and longer.

Trip that actually also damaged my liver. So you guys be, be careful of these things. So, but when I went there all the way to the border in between the living and the dead, this experience that I had, you know, I was in front of a question, do you [01:01:00] want to leave or do you want to stay down here? And I think in that moment I decided that I wanted to reemerge from this trip.

And I wanted to re reemerge from this space of madness that I had access and, and, and as an affirmative action, I kinda like start climbing back up on a sound that was coming from, from reality. And, and I, I kinda like went back to surface. So I think to go back, I think we have the choice. We have the choice, you know, even in the, in the most overwhelming psychedelic experience.

I think we, we end up in front of a choice on what we want to do with it. And I invite all of you who listen to don’t focus too much on your own selves. That sometimes it is a way of overthink about your own problems and kind of find a [01:02:00] way to put you. yourself at service of a larger cause, whatever that is, you know and, and I think that is going to be the best way of integrating the, the, the psychedelic experience and probably also the first step.

to build a society that is more empathic. It’s less driven by competition and is more about, you know coming together. 

Giancarlo: Yes, that’s a great advice. I just would like to conclude with this idea of mine that I’ve been thinking recently. Is that, you know, like, for example, you know, as you know, there is a couple of church, ayahuasca church that can serve the medicine legal legally around the world, the Santo diamond and the union, the vegetal.

So if you’re a part of that church, you know, you buy in that kind of Cosmo vision, which is. different variation of animism, but, you know, they have specific set of belief and values. If you do ayahuasca with the shipibo, you take [01:03:00] their cosmovision, the kashinawa, the kogi, the, you know, the different, different country, different tribes.

Now that people will start taking the sacrament in, in American hospital and clinic which cosmovision I mean, I hear what you say. I say, listen, you don’t need to understand. You can just embrace the mystery, put yourself in service. You don’t need to understand. You don’t need to have the explanation of that entity, this other entity.

But for many people, especially my, my generation, which has really developed this intellect. To make sense of the world, you know, to have a little booklet of, you know, the third millennium hospital psychedelic set of beliefs would be something useful, you know, for people to, you know, as part of the spiritual integration.

You know, and, and developing a relationship with the sacred design with this, [01:04:00] with this, you know, intelligent design, if you don’t want to use the word sacred and this level of knowledge and understanding, I think would have positive ripple effect. On reducing the ego and creating this sense of community, you know?

So, yeah, that’s my thought. So 

Speaker 4: a again, i, I, I wanna, I wanna reply by evoking patterns, you know, this kind of network of of the, of designs, you know, that the kind of like, paint over any available media. So I think that evokes a almost like the feedback of consciousness. It’s kind of like a neural system and maybe it is a pre semantic pre linguistic form of intelligence.

Imagine, I don’t know, a baby in the, in the belly before being born dreaming, you know, I mean, imagine that kind of language, a language made of like, [01:05:00] Connection. At the same time, this network is a web is almost like a fish net that captures symbols. And, and, and letters and concepts in a very permeable way.

So I don’t think you need to have a unique Cosmo vision because I think there is space for a multi layered one. I think you can co exist. If you are a Christian, you can have your Christianity co exist with these other ideas. As long as you, you can co exist with these other ideas. Keep your mind open and you don’t make of your faith a blind, you know, so, so I like to use my shipibo patterns to go fish, you know, and then, you know, I kind of like get all these little elements from my emotional memory, from ideas, from other dimensions.

And I kind of like, put them all together in a soup. And with that, [01:06:00] I live my life. 

Giancarlo: Amazing. Amazing. So let’s conclude since you mentioned the Shipibo pattern. So, you represent a bunch of Shipibo artists. Where are they exhibiting now? 

Speaker 4: It’s a very exciting moment. You know, the Western art world is rediscovering.

Indigenous practitioners. So at this moment, there are like four shows that I can mention of the artists that we represent. Sean on Bain show is an incredible solo show at W gallery in Buenos Aires. I don’t know how many of you are in Buenos Aires, but the show is stunning. Then in New York city, we have Sarah Flores and Celia Vasquez, At Clearing at 260 Bowery, just in front of the new museum again, just a couple of years ago, it would have been impossible to imagine, you know, a central gallery in Manhattan in the peak of art season with September is like prime time opening with two shipibo artists.

[01:07:00] And then at the Johnson at Cornell university museum, another large exhibition by Celia Vasquez Huey. So and then more in Europe, actually, we are about to start off Florida. It’s going to be December 12 opening and white cube in Paris and a large exhibition about not only ship people, but about visionary art from the Amazon is opening on November 14 in Paris at the museum.

Giancarlo: Perfect. Perfect. And we’re going to put all these dates and these names on the show notes. Thank you so much, Matteo, your passion and and knowledge come through. We’re going to do another episode about colonization and reciprocity and yeah, Matteo Norzi guys. Thank you. 

Speaker 4: I love to everybody.

Thank you, Giancarlo. I love [01:08:00] you.