77: Raffaello Manacorda on Conscious Sexuality

Raffaello.life
ISTA 

Wisdom Studies
Swan episode
Kinsey
Masters & Johnson
1970s – Sexual revolution
Socrates
Daoism
Maslow’s hierarchy of needs
Fetishes – Nick Bromfield
Osho
Rinpoche
Adi Da Samraj
Crazy Wisdom

Giancarlo: [00:00:00] Hello. Hi. Welcome to this new episode of the Mango TV podcast. Today I’m super excited to have Rafael La Manta back online with us. Rafael is an international tantra teacher and practitioner. With over 15 years of experience, he has undergone intensive training in various style of yoga. After completing a master’s degree in philosophy, Rafael will spent more than 12 years living in alternative communities, experimenting with radically alternative lifestyle.

[00:01:00] During this period, he encountered Tantra, which developed into a lifelong practice. He serves as LED faculty at the International School of Temple Art Ista, and teaches in lecture worldwide. Rafael is currently enrolled in a PhD program in Wisdom Studies at the Ubiquity University of California. He’s also the co-creator of the ISTA Practitioner training, a program for coaches and practitioners in the field of c sexuality.

Welcome, Rafa.

Raffaello: Thank you, Giancarlo. So good to be with you again.

Giancarlo: Yes, thank you so much. So as, as our listener know, we started with we had an episode, we sworn we, we are now, after a couple of years and almost a hundred episode of biographical conversation, focusing on cathartic moment. Now we are doing, you know, sometimes more thematic conversation with expert and, and so would you guess what we’re gonna talk about?

Raffaello: I don’t know. Lemme guess what is that going to [00:02:00] be? Sex, money or power?

Giancarlo: Sex.

Raffaello: Okay. Good

Giancarlo: Sex or rather, or rather conscious sexuality. Right. Uhhuh, it’s such a buzz word this day. Okay, let me just see if you agree. I want to try to contextualize a little bit the, the discussion around sexuality. So, am I right to say that this is the third wave of sexuality exploration?

I would say the first wave was in the, in the fifties, sixties with the Quine and the master and Johnson more scientific studies. Right. So that’s what the beginning of the debunking of all the cliche about woman sexuality not being as. You know, dev developed as men and, and, and, you know, all the talk about, you know, the woman orgasm.

Debunking some of Freud idea, the idea of sexuality being in a spectrum, you know, like a very laboratory, sort of scientific studies, right? That was the kin and master and Johnson. Then the second [00:03:00] wave was more political, right? It was more the feminist, the sixties, the seventies. It is my right to behave like that, to have this freedom, to have this power.

It’s very, it was very political, you know, like people want to the same rights and, and, and, you know, homosexuality and, and even, even maybe, you know, three people that wants to be together that want to have the same help from the government, you know, very political very freedom based. And what I feel now is happening there is like a third wave, which we could call conscious sexuality, which is the topic I want to.

Talk today, which is to unpack this third wave, you know, they call it c sexuality, they call it shamanic or transpersonal. There’s a big focus on consent. On, on and, and, and so you are the expert. So let’s start there. Do, do you agree on these three waves? And, and then most importantly, how would you define the third one?[00:04:00]

Raffaello: I think it’s a really good model. It’s not the model that I use in my everyday life, but while I was listening to you, I was like, oh yeah, that’s really cool. And what I thought is we can see them as chronological waves, the way you presented it, but also we could just see them as sort of like parts that are always within us.

Let me explain. Mm-hmm. I know that I have a scientific self, you know, or a part of me that is, that is scientific. It’s gonna be always more of an experiment. Laboratory rat, even with sexuality. I have a part of me that is a political self, maybe more concerned with issues of ethics, you know, what is right, what is the right thing to do, even in something so personal as sexuality.

And then I have a spiritual self. And I like looking at this way because I think I would say that for most of us as human beings, it is important or at least valuable to develop all of [00:05:00] these three different currents. So instead of looking it as, you know, one way, and which is by the way also true because maybe the collective put more attention on one or the other aspect we can also see them as different perspectives on the same topic.

Giancarlo: Interesting. Interesting. So in the day-to-day life is integrated, these three waves? Absolutely.

Raffaello: In my case, I would say yes, but you know, also sometimes I feel less integrated and two of those parts are fighting with each other. I mean, the classical example of that, which may be something that you also wanted to touch, I’m not sure, is the conflict that can happen at times between our ethical moral self and our, for example, spiritual conscious sexuality self.

So to give a very practical example, there are sometimes frictions in the conscious sexuality field when we speak about polarity, for instance, and masculine and [00:06:00] feminine and you know, the dance of polarity. And that can clash with the sexual liberation movement part of. You know, us that wants everybody to be just equal and the same.

So there can be some interesting dynamics there.

Giancarlo: Yeah. Super interesting. I’m gonna write it down to touch on that, on, on, on, on the political correctness of polarity. Okay. But tell me more about the third wave. What does it mean for you? What is conscious neutrality? Yeah.

Raffaello: Yeah. In my case, I would say this entering into the third wave of, of conscious sexuality came by necessity.

And I know that for many others it’s the same many other people that I know. So I grew up, you know, very unspiritual, non-spiritual. So my relationship with sexuality, I wouldn’t say that it was scientific, but it was definitely a very physical and in a way. Practical relationship with this [00:07:00] aspect of my life.

Then I went for a long time into a political exploration, you know, what does it mean to reverse or dissolve the gender roles and all of that, and then something was missing. And so when we talk about conscious sexuality, for me, what that has meant, essentially it’s meant putting the same loving attention on sexuality, my sexuality, and then eventually other people’s sexuality, the same loving attention that I would put, you know, as you, as you shared in my biography, I’m a philosopher by instruction.

I have a master’s in philosophy. So the same loving attention that as a philosopher, I would put on the problem of like, let’s say, how did the universe come to be? Is time an illusion? Like, you know, that those things that keep you up at night, you’re like, what is the purpose of life? What is the purpose of evolution?

Is there evolution? So putting the same attention on the mystery of sexuality for me was the doorway [00:08:00] to conscious sexualities much more in my case than in my case, it wasn’t a devotional entry into conscious sexuality. For other people it is ’cause they’re devotional, you know, more by nature. But in my case it was my philosopher got very, very interested in sexuality as a mystery.

That’s equally as important as the creation of the universe, for example,

Giancarlo: as an academic interest almost.

Raffaello: But I would say it’s different though because philosophy and academia are not the very different, even though today, you know, philosophy is a branch of academia, but as an archetype, the philosopher, if you think about Socrates, you know, is someone that is in the problem.

It’s not studying it from afar, is someone that even dies, you know, is is the guy that that walks looking at the stars and falls into a hole or experiments with their own body. So that’s philo embodied philosophy that I’m talking about.

Giancarlo: I [00:09:00] understand. That’s an important distinction. Thank you. It’s very clear.

But so what was the result of this embodied exploration for you?

Raffaello: Much better problems. You know, like life will never stop presenting us with challenges and problems. That’s my belief, you know? Or challenges, let’s put them this way. So entering into conscious sexuality for me didn’t mean resolve the or.

Yeah, I mean, it didn’t mean. Like erasing the challenges of something so vulnerable and beautiful and delicate as sexuality is, but it meant instead of facing the same challenges that I had faced for, let’s say 15 years, you know, on a loop upgrading to a new layer, to a new level of challenges and problems.

Giancarlo: Okay, forgive me, Rafa, let’s mention the old problems and the new problems quickly.

Raffaello: So, old problems were [00:10:00] like, you know, stuff like insecurity, performing anxiety getting upset, bored, losing interest in other people’s sexual self. And then also for me, my own sexual pleasure, honestly, finding it pretty underwhelming, so to speak.

You know, so those were the old problems. I could speak more, but you, you get the idea. The new problems. I, I get

Giancarlo: the idea, but not many people do. I mean, also I would add, you know, like just fear of being present and need, needing to get drunk.

Raffaello: Yes.

Giancarlo: And, and, and, and, and, and also by lack of presence, maybe breaching boundaries.

Raffaello: Yeah. That wasn’t very much my story. I mean, I totally understand and have compassion for that. Yeah. My story was more the fear of being present. Present, yeah. Developing into a chronic shyness. Yeah,

Giancarlo: yeah, [00:11:00] yeah, yeah, yeah.

Raffaello: Incapacity to, to go for what I wanted to express my desires. And so developing maybe manipulative ways to get my desires met or my.

Indirect, very indirect. Like sulking in a corner hoping that someone would notice la la la la la la.

Giancarlo: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But, but, but, you know, if, if we’re here try to determine conscious sexuality and, and you, I think very smartly, as usual, you just said, okay, let’s, let’s first define what is unconscious sexuality?

And, and that’s what we’re doing. And, and so I want to put it out there that, you know, the biggest problem of unconscious sexuality is, you know, problem of ethics and consent and, and, and, and abuse. But anyhow, we don’t have to. Let’s, let’s go into the new problem.

Raffaello: Sure. So then, yeah, moving from those, let’s say, old problems to new problems that I would never even, you know, imagined before like for [00:12:00] example.

Once I managed to reclaim my own sexuality as a gift to myself and in some cases to others, to the world, even, you could say, I don’t, I don’t mean to, you know, sound bombastic about it. Every human being has that gift. It’s just a matter of connecting to it. But then that creates a whole series of new problems, like what to do with it, when is it appropriate to share it?

When is this not appropriate to share it? Models of relationships commitment versus adventure. Meaning like the deep, deep meaning of sexuality. And these problems can only be addressed when sort of like the survival level has been addressed. You know, similar to like Maslow’s hierarchy of needs or something like that.

You first need to, you know, address if the house is on fire. You first need to address the fire, and then you can think about renovating or decoration. And and, but still [00:13:00] renovating and decoration is gonna feel problematic as well. You know, it’s not like easy peasy. So I would just say that that’s the evolution that happens with anything that you’re putting consciousness into, basically.

Giancarlo: Do you feel like giving a little bit more practical example of conscious sexuality problems or objectives?

Raffaello: Well, for instance, you know, like having grown up and being socialized sexually and culturally as a man, in my case and in your case as well. Then the problem, I’m gonna put quote unquote here, but the problem of my inner feminine was a huge one.

Up until my sexuality and relationships were unconscious, that wasn’t a problem because my inner feminine was projected outside. So it was my partner’s problems. They had problems, you know, in my opinion, they [00:14:00] were too this or that, too emotional, too chaotic. Whatever you want, say, too dramatic. After, in the, in the post consciousness, so to speak, phase, that becomes a very different problem.

It becomes, okay, so how do I get to know my inner contra sexual self? The part of me that I obviously had to repress or, or negate or hide because I had to survive, you know, in my growing up as an Italian man in the nineties it is, and nineties. So that’s a huge, I’m, I’m, I’m calling it problem, but it’s actually a huge discovery.

That conscious sexuality brings you to where hey, there is an inner feminine inside of me. There is an inner masculine inside of me. What do I do with them? You know? And can I also bring that richness to my sexual life in some way or another instead of repeating, you know, ’cause that’s another problem of sexuality.

Even when it [00:15:00] works oftentimes it’s repetitive and sort of like goes into scripts, you know, the same thing again, the same loop again.

Giancarlo: Yeah. This is so clear. I’m so happy to be doing this, but, so let me, sorry. Forgive me if I vulgarize it or, but just to popularize a little bit, this concept, you know, like I was also growing up Italian in the nineties.

And you know, like back then sex was something, sex was something almost that the woman gives and the man receives. Right. It was more, it, you know, the, the, the, the whole idea of, of, of sexuality was very, you know, man centric in the men doing the performance and, and so, so what you’re saying is that, you know, society condition you and, and family condition you, so part of this conscious sexuality is looking at the deconditioning, so Absolutely.

Yeah. But, so can you say that better than me? I didn’t say it very well. How, how [00:16:00] is the decondition, so what, what was the, the, the conditioning from society in the nineties for us, for example, and how did the deconditioning come about and how, how can you explain, imagine people that never heard polarity, masculine, feminine.

What, what, can you explain a little bit better? Not better, but more, more, more.

Raffaello: For sure. For sure. Let’s start by, you know, like I’m, I’m gonna generalize of course. Let’s start by saying that probably 99.9% of people are raised in cultures, different cultures, you know, with many differences. But one thing in common that sexuality isn’t spoken about or explained or transmitted from the previous generation to the next, I can safely say that this is valid, maybe not for everybody on this planet, but for most humans, whether they grow up in a Christian country, in a Muslim country, in a Jewish country, in a Hindu country, in a Buddhist [00:17:00] country, that’s gonna be similar if not exactly the same.

So that’s already huge because the first deconditioning is, Hey, this thing that happens between humans is important. It is valuable. It is part of the wisdom of the collective. There are laws, there are there is wisdom that humans have accumulated around sexuality. So how is it that I didn’t hear about it?

You know, when I grew up, I don’t think you did either. I’m pretty sure, you know, did, did my father or or anybody, you know, any older man or woman in my community sit me down a few times and say, okay, let’s speak about this incredible mystery that you are starting to sense in your body. All these changes.

That are stimulating new desires and new sensations. Let me tell you what we have learned through generations of experimenting with [00:18:00] sexuality and what could make your first sexual encounter so much better, so much safer, so much more satisfying. Do you have any questions? Oh, ask me. You know, like, that never happened to me and that never happened to any of my friends.

And also that never happened to the girls, to the girls that I was interacting with at that young age. So that’s the first, that’s the mother of all the conditionings, you know, before we even say okay, the, the, the male, the female, masculine, feminine, okay? Yes. But it all starts from saying. Which for most of us didn’t happen.

Sexuality is important. It’s meaningful, it’s valuable. We have knowledge about it. We meaning as a human community, let’s learn. Let’s put it as a topic of study, as a topic of experimentation. That’s the first and most important, the conditioning. Then from there, we can continue further and essentially, I would [00:19:00] say every community that put attention on sexuality, that studied it, discovered some laws, some, some patterns if you want, like law, law maybe sounds very, you know, like forever eternal and, and strict.

But in the same way that you will discover law, if you start studying electricity or the cycles of nature, you know, or agriculture, it’s not that nature never, never changes. But there are patterns, there are laws, you know, that this plant needs to be planted in a certain. Time year, you know, otherwise it might still grow, but it probably won’t.

And similarly with sexuality there are certain laws, if you wish, or certain patterns that have been discovered again and again and again by multiple cultures. But then it’s very tricky because for the individual like you and me, it sounds like we’re coming to a completely empty book of sexuality. No one ever [00:20:00] discovered anything because there is so much shame in transmitting this knowledge.

Giancarlo: Yes. Okay, but so what is then what is the cultural origin of this feminine masculine, this is a Shiva Shakti who, how, how, what’s the cultural context of, ’cause part of the deconditioning is like, okay, so. What I realized is that there is, you know what I call the feminine, I thought was only my woman responsibility.

But then with this transition to conscious sexuality from unconscious, you realize as, okay, so there is part in me that has a desire to practice to engage in sexuality more from a feminine point of view. Can you elaborate a little bit on that?

Raffaello: Yes. So the feminine masculine framework in conscious sexuality is both incredibly useful and wise and smart [00:21:00] and and actually real.

And it’s also very tricky and problematic. It’s tricky and problematic because of the words that we are using. Feminine and masculine have so many associations with them. It’s almost impossible for any of us to hear those words. If I hear feminine. Like some kind of image is gonna form in my mind that’s gonna be similar to the body of a woman.

You know, like I cannot help it vice versa with the masculine. So it’s tricky, but it’s also true that every culture that I know of that studied sexuality inevitably studied sexuality as a phenomenon of polarity. Let’s talk about this word for a second of polarity. What does polarity mean? Polarity means that I am observing a phenomenon of nature, and I discover that there are two poles.

You know, it’s a duality. There are two poles that this phenomenon [00:22:00] sort of like needs to be manifested. For instance, if I start, you know, if I get very curious about. Lightning, you know, lightning in nature. After a while I will discover that lightning only happens when there are two poles that are present at the same time.

One is the ground, the earth, and specifically of course, it needs to be a part of the ground that can conduce electricity like a tree for instance. That’s one pole. And the other pole is a cloud. If, if there is no cloud, there is no lightning. But if there is no conducive element below, there is also no lightning.

I can have a cloud hovering over a cement block for all the time that I want and it won’t create that phenomenon. Nice. So then I discover, I just discovered that this event is an event that is rooted in polarity. In two poles. And with sexual energy, something like [00:23:00] that happens that when we start studying it, we discovered that, oh wow, we need two poles for sexual energy to manifest itself.

Now, that’s not a hard and fast rule. And of course, you know, as, as everybody can understand, I can be sexual with myself. I can awaken sexual energy without anyone else being there. That’s okay. But still we’re talking about a phenomenon that’s inherently polar. And then when you have these two poles, you need to give them names.

And in the field of electricity you’ll speak about positive and negative, or you know, let’s say phase and neutral. You know, in the case of alternate current, and in the case of sexuality, the words that we found that, you know, the, the, the words that we use as westerners are feminine, masculine. In the tantric edition that I studied.

They would use different words of, for example, Shiva and Shakti, just because [00:24:00] in that tradition, they love defining things with the names of gods and goddesses, you know, they, it just works for them. But for some of us it might not work as well In Taoism from China, they would use the words yin and yang, for example.

It’s again, another teaching on polarity. So you can choose whatever words you want, solar and lunar but the essential teaching behind it is like, oh, when you study sexuality, you discover that it is a phenomenon that’s best understood as polarity between two poles, two opposite poles, complimentary poles.

Giancarlo: But so Rafa, sorry if I keep on going back to very practical, basic example, but is it fair to say that basically. You know, like unconscious sexuality would be a man engaging in intercourse in a very masculine goal oriented friction based looking for [00:25:00] orgasm approach. And then once there’s a transition to more conscious sexuality, the man might get in touch with their own feminine and realize that it will be, it’s, it’s, it will be pleasurable and nourishing for him also to receive and be maybe on, on the receiving end of this energy.

Is this make sense?

Raffaello: It’s both more simple and more complicated than that. Let me, let me explain why I hope I’m not confusing, you know, more than I’m clarifying in a way it’s more simple because you, you’re asking me, okay, so what’s the different be difference between unconscious, unconscious sexuality, for instance?

And the difference is very simple. It’s a very simple difference. The difference is. Loving presence,

Giancarlo: awareness, loving the same

Raffaello: act, done without loving presence can become an incredibly conscious act when it’s done with loving presence. So the [00:26:00] difference is very simple. It can explain, be explained in two words, but then the consequences of adding loving presence to something to enact, to a process, to a relationship are very complex and very diverse.

One consequence could be just what you just shared could be if you’re taking the example of a man, that by that man being lovingly present, present to himself and to his partner, that man becomes more aware of his receptive feminine side and starts engaging in sexuality in a different way, which I think is where you were going like.

Oh, wait a minute. Instead of, you know, you know, being this kind of bull, you know, that’s always charging forward. How about I lean back and even receive maybe some sexual energy, maybe I even receive penetrative sexual energy from another human being. How [00:27:00] would that feel like? That’s a beautiful, possible consequence of loving presence, but there are many other possible consequences.

It could even be the opposite or the same. It could be that that man now together with a partner decide to engage in sexuality where he’s still going to act, you know, in a penetrating directive, sort of like, like a bull way. But now there is loving presence, there is breathing, there is consciousness, there is awareness, and that can be absolutely delightful.

So conscious sexuality by itself doesn’t dictate what each person’s sexual behavior or preferences will be. It similar as when you put consciousness and presence in food. That doesn’t mean that you need to become vegetarian. That doesn’t mean that you need to become keto. You know, it’s gonna be different for everybody.

But the, the one differentiating [00:28:00] factor is that you are present.

Giancarlo: Yes, this is very, very useful. Loving presence is a very clear concept, and it very clear. But, so, okay, let me venture in this, you know, on the, on the quality of pleasure. So, I know Ista doesn’t focus so much into this. Speak orgasm, more ejaculatory for him, ple the end for her, and then the full body orgasm, which is non ejaculatory for him and more vaginal, even cervical for her.

What is your view? I mean is the transition from conscious to from unconscious to conscious sexuality, understanding the loving presence, also create more awareness on the quality of the pleasure? What do you think about that?

Raffaello: Yeah, for sure, for sure. Because when we put, again, when we put presence and awareness on our pleasure and on [00:29:00] our orgasmic process, so to speak, there are a lot of doors that open that weren’t open before.

So you know, you know about me that before this phase I was for seven, eight years. Involved in a more tantric community. And there we had a lot of beautiful deep teachings about exactly the topic that you’re sharing. So for me personally, it was a huge journey of moving beyond the ejaculatory orgasm that I was used to.

Like just the calming, you know, so calming. There is an ejaculation, there is a peak of pleasure, and then there is a valet. And even you could say a valet that takes me even below the level of normal aliveness that I feel all the time. So I wanted to move beyond this experience because it was a habit, because it was a recurrent experience that I had experienced [00:30:00] hundreds of time already by the time I was 13.

So what’s beyond that? So much? The possibility. I’m now focusing for a moment more on male bodies. The possibility to separate these two processes of orgasm and ejaculation, to access orgasms that do not involve ejaculation, to expand our capacity to feel orgasmic energy, as you were saying, not just very focused and localized in our genitals, testicles, penis, penis, prostate, but also in the rest of the body, in the belly, in the chest, in the legs, head, heart.

So absolutely, that’s a fantastic exploration. But again, presence, I, I, I prefer to speak about loving presence, but just for brevity, I’m gonna say presence is like a compass, right? A compass is going to take you somewhere, but when you get there, the [00:31:00] compass is still pointing somewhere. So what I mean by that is if we hold loving presence, there isn’t not, there isn’t necessarily a point of arrival, you know, okay, great.

Now I’m able to experiment or to experience orgasms without ejaculation. Now I can experience full body orgasms. Wonderful. What now, you know, where is my, if I am attentive to what’s happening to me, then what’s next? And maybe what’s next is to explore more my feminine side. Okay, great. And then what, so that’s where, that’s why the exploration of sexuality was considered still is one of the access doors to potentially infinity because it takes you down a rabbit hole or up if you wish, that is going to not stop at the possibility of experiencing better, [00:32:00] deeper.

More mind blowing orgasms. That’s great. And now what? You know, because those orgasms are going to open doors, they’re going to make me very happy sometimes and sometimes very sad and sometimes very angry. Like, they’re gonna connect me to emotions that I didn’t know I could access. Now what do I do with them?

Right. So it’s, it’s a way to what, and honestly, I think this could happen with any human activity or experience. If you put loving presence on the activity of weaving baskets, you know, just do it for 20 years and you will discover the mysteries of life and the universe as well. For sure. And some people say that that’s exactly how Tantra originated, you know, by.

Wise women and men just doing very, very mundane activities like weaving baskets or gathering [00:33:00] fruits, but with so much presence that eventually a whole philosophy of life came out of it.

Giancarlo: Yes.

Raffaello: So sexuality is one access point. It’s not the only one, but it’s, it’s very, very enticing and sort of like useful because it’s so present in our lives and so potent.

But you could, you might as well choose to do instead of conscious sexuality, choose to do conscious basket weaving, and it would probably take you to the same places.

Giancarlo: Okay, great. This is very clear and you explain it very well. So let me explore a little bit more. So if I understand correctly, you’re saying that.

This whole idea of, you know, non ejaculatory or conscious sexuality is not a destination, is a process that can continue forever. Because when you put attention and presence, you keep on discovering new things. So my question is to what extent this practice is a way, I mean, you said it [00:34:00] is, it is, it is a way of self discovery, but so can you elaborate a little bit on to what extent conscious sexuality is a psychotherapeutic practice?

What do you, what can you learn about yourself and, and how, and who’s the therapist and who’s the client? And, and, and, and so couple switch and, and what kind of guidelines and recommendation would you give to people that want to look at c sexuality as a form of psychotherapeutic practice?

Raffaello: Wow. Huh, good one.

I am not sure if I would call conscious sexuality a form of psychotherapeutic practice. It’s a tricky question. Do I believe that engaging in conscious sexuality can have massive healing effects? Yes, I do. But the therapeutic framework is a different thing. And part of it, as you were saying, is that when we evoke the [00:35:00] therapeutic framework, we are now having to deal with another polarity, right?

Which is therapist and client and in a partnership that might not be an ideal polarity to, to work with, even though it’s also possible, you know, I don’t, I don’t exclude that. So I would say maybe with my vocabulary, let’s talk about conscious sexuality as potentially a healing heart. If that’s okay. You know, like, if, if you don’t mind me reframing it from psychotherapeutic practice to a healing art, I would say that nutrition is a healing art.

Right. Or a yoga, definitely movement. Yeah. Movement, yeah. Dance can be a healing art, but also painting, you know, for some people can be a healing art

Giancarlo: friendship. We go back to the weaving the basket.

Raffaello: Exactly. Exactly. So conscious sexuality definitely can be, is a healing art for sure on many, many [00:36:00] levels.

There are so many studies that connect our level of sexual happiness, contentment with a lot of parameters. You know, the level of the hormonal regulation of our bloodstream the blood circulation levels, the health of our heart. The, and of course not to mention psychological effects that are basically under the eyes of everybody.

Unless you very, very consciously choose to live a non-sexual life, because that’s your sovereign and free choice, if that is not your sovereign and free choice, we all know that sexual deprivation can lead to all kinds of issues. So having satisfactory I said sexual deprivation, but what I mean is like sexual dissatisfaction of all kinds.

Even know if you’re having lots of sex but you’re drunk, you know, you can’t enjoy. So conscious sexuality definitely helps in that way, but that just, that is just the tip of the [00:37:00] iceberg because one, when you put presence on the process of sexual engagement between two or more people, inevitably that will lead to feeling emotions to vulnerability.

To getting to know oneself in a way, in a deeper way than just by rational analysis. When I engage in c sexuality, I will discover what are some of the beliefs that I have around my own body? What are some of the beliefs that I have around men? What are, what are some of the beliefs that I hold around women?

What are some of the you know, negative maybe self-talk that I engage in on a very subconscious level, but it comes out during a sexual encounter. So it is a, a form, a form of self-inquiry and a form of self introspection. The problem is that for [00:38:00] that to be a form of self-inquiry and self introspection, we need to give it time.

We need to give it space. You know, we can’t just relegate it to 15 minutes. You know, when and if we have. The capacity to carve that time. So like everything else, it needs time and attention. So I would say, you know, many people, I include myself actually in this category, many people entered conscious sexuality for very selfish reasons.

If you wish. Like selfish with a small s you know, like, I wanna have better sex. I want to be a better lover. I want to expand my capacity to feel pleasure. It’s all about me, me, me, me, me, basically. And that’s how I entered this inquiry, to be fully honest. But then this inquiry takes us to levels that are beyond that small, selfish bunch of needs, you know?

Then I end up discovering that, [00:39:00] oh wow, when I am in conscious sexual bliss. My sense of I expands and I can include the person that I’m with, and I can include the whole room and I can include the whole universe. Maybe even. So, there is an element of, you know, bait and switch here, in a sense, similar to yoga, you know, people start doing yoga because they want to be more flexible and more whatever, able-bodied, and they, they discover after a year or two or five, that that’s a much deeper exploration than they thought.

Same with conscious sexuality. It’s the same situation here.

Giancarlo: Nice. Very well said. And, and I remember that you taught me on my first level one that I think it was in Castaneda tradition, they have this idea of calling the pain bodies, the demons, the shadows, buffalo and, and the way to kill the buffalo. You need to be, you know, empathic, but also very precise.

And because they’re easy, they’re not easy to kill. And, and one way to get them is a dusk when they drink, but the [00:40:00] light is not very good. And sexuality is like these big lights that help you visualize and and potentially kill metaphorically this pain body. So, okay. I have a couple more topic. That right.

So, so you, you, you mentioned it already saying, okay, would you start with yoga to be flexible and then you find yourself after five years. Having mystical experience. Okay. So this is what the term, I read the, the term when I hear trans transpersonal. To what extent conscious sexuality is a transpersonal practice that can be compared to mystical experiences.

Raffaello: Yeah, I love this question. Well, this is a really beautiful question in my opinion, a lot. There is a lot of parallel there, and I’ll tell you why. Maybe I don’t know if it’s necessary to first define very briefly what we mean when we say transpersonal. And this is a field that has been studied, as you were saying, [00:41:00] psychology.

And there is a lot of literature and references, but essentially I, I, I’ll try my best at defining, when we use the word transpersonal, we’re talking about. Any experience or state of consciousness that can bring us beyond the identification with the personal self? So I have a personal self. I am a 47-year-old male, you know, that has certain political opinions and certain sets of values.

This is all my personal self. And then occasionally in certain conditions, in certain practices, even I can, I can, my sense of, I can go beyond that. For example, I can feel that in this moment I am just a human. You know, my nationality doesn’t matter anymore. My opinions don’t matter so much anymore. My sense of eye is more expanded to just being a human.

But it can go beyond that. You know, I can sometimes just feel that my sense [00:42:00] of eye is just being life, life embodied, for example, not even focused on being human. So there is this idea that the sense of eye can sort of like go beyond and and progress through many, many layers. And the personal self is just one of them, but it doesn’t stop there.

So, you know, for, you could say many decades, psychology was focused on the ailments of the personal self, the problems of the personal self, like the neurosis of the personal self and how to support them. That’s more the fraudulent approach to psychology. And then as everything else, it evolved and it, you know people starting with Jung actually, and then others recognize that sometimes the pain that people experience has nothing to do with their personal self.

It’s transpersonal. It could be the pain of being alive, the pain of being a man, the ecstasis of being alive, the ecstasis of being a human, so on and so forth. Okay, I’ll stop it [00:43:00] here. Just to say that nowadays a branch of psychology is very, very devoted to. Transpersonal psychology to states of feeling, for example, expensiveness of the eye.

And also that comes with its own sets of challenges and revelations. But your question was, can conscious sexuality be a transpersonal doorway or a transpersonal practice into states transpersonal states And Yes, full on. And the reason why, one of the reasons why is that in a way, if you think about it, even from a biological standpoint, the sexual act is wired and it’s meant to be a transcendence of our personal, even of our personal survival for a, for a mammalian creature like we are from the standpoint of both a male and a female, when we are engaging in a sexual act.

We [00:44:00] are at our most vulnerable, you know, we are very defenseless. A predator could kill us in a minute. We are expanding all this energy. In the case of the male body, we are donating in a way or or sharing our seed. In the case of the female body. We are sort of like sacrificing in a way that precious egg that has taken a full cycle to bring it to maturity.

And what are we doing this for? Are we doing it for ourselves, for our personal, like, for our personal survival of this body? No, absolutely not. We’re doing it for something that transcends and in a, in a purely biological evolutionary sense, you could say. We’re doing it for the benefit of the species, of the collective, of human humanness itself versus this particular human.

So already, biologically speaking, [00:45:00] the sexual act is wired to take us beyond the personal self from a psychological standpoint. Many, many people report that in their moment of sexual bliss, often in the moment of orgasm, but not only even prior to that, they feel a dissolution of the barriers of the personal self, which is a huge relief.

And it’s probably one of the things that makes sexuality so attractive. You know, finally, I can, ah, relax those boundaries a bit. When I say boundaries, I don’t mean boundaries as in, in consent, but more like the perimeter of the self can be expanded, can be relaxed for some time. Then when we access conscious sexuality, then definitely sexuality can be a doorway to mystical states of feel, of union of bliss that can also be reached through meditation or spiritual practices and so on and so forth.[00:46:00]

So yes, absolutely. Sexuality is a doorway to the transpersonal, and that’s one of the reasons why it is so painful that the wisdom on sexuality is not very widely known or shared. ’cause we’re missing out on a very available way for people to access transpersonal states. That only requires your own body, no substances, no other external factors, but your own body.

Giancarlo: Yes. So just to give a concrete example, i, I had it in, in, in my second, in my, in my second level one. You know, I had an exercise, I had to engage with this, you know, Dutch man. And, and you know, I thought that the last thing I wanted is to do this exercise with this Dutch man. I actually even didn’t like him, but then, you know, when you peak, so, and, and, and but then I said, listen, we are here and I’m gonna, you know, force myself to, to, [00:47:00] to do this exercise.

And as I was, you know, just massaging him, he started crying and I was like, wow. And he was like, oh, I’m so grateful. I know for you it’s difficult. You’re doing that. And I’m, and all these tears start to trigger something in me. And then as the exercise was becoming more demanding, I, which I already said, I would not go there with the help with the facilitator.

I did my best to, to finish the exercise and, and, and I start sobbing also. And there was this like energetic portal of gratitude that open up. We were both in tears, but I’m not, I’m not making it up like for, I dunno, an hour. And, and, and, and this energetic portal had nothing to do with me or him. I think it was a transpersonal experience of just mystical, of divine gratitude.

And, and it was just, it was beautiful. It was very nourishing. Very nourishing.

Raffaello: [00:48:00] Yeah. No, I absolutely, I think I was there. I’m not sure if I was there. I think I was there.

Giancarlo: That wa no, maybe not. That was my second level one you sent, you sent me to do level one again before doing you and Bruce Lyon remember.

Raffaello: Got it. Got it. Yes. So, but you know what I want to highlight about what you’re sharing John Ka is that of course this experience could also have happened just by a conversation. You know, sometimes we have a deep conversation with someone and we end up in tears. That can happen. But I will say that. The way this happened to you and to this other person, the fact that you were in physical contact, the fact that there was some level of intimacy.

It wasn’t sexual, you weren’t being sexual with each other, but there was a physical intimacy through the touch to the vulnerability that the touch allows. That’s what it is. The key

Giancarlo: word, the vulnerability. Exactly.

Raffaello: Yeah. So that was one major contributing factor. Yeah. For [00:49:00] you experiencing that incredible state.

Giancarlo: Yeah, and

Raffaello: that’s why I say again and again, of course you can do, you can do everything in in many different ways, but when we close the access door of the body of physical intimacy, of sexuality. We close a very important door because that’s where it can bring us the, the same thing that you experienced, I would say that is under the category of conscious sexuality.

Even though you weren’t sexual, you weren’t attracted to this person. There was no sexual act involved, but there was breathing feeling and the bodies were engaged. Yeah. And that’s what we mean by contra sexuality essentially.

Giancarlo: Yeah. And also I feel that the deconditioning of shame and guilt opens energetic portals.

There is something about all this conditioning about, you know, the anal being dirty and [00:50:00] off limits. And when you engage with that. You know, this, this idea of like transcending the, the culture is like a, it’s like a, a psychic barrier that prevent the ascendants. That’s, that’s how, how I see it. But, so listen, I have a couple of questions, but I promise not to go above 50 minutes.

I have a couple of question regarding, you know, decoding sexuality and fetish and crazy wisdom. But we can also do another time. You know, we are, we are licensing a documentary as from many years ago from Nick Broomfield, which is one of my favorite documentary filmmaker called Fetishes, about this fetish house in Manhattan in the, in the eighties.

How, how do you feel about talking about fight? Should we postpone the conversation?

Raffaello: We can do it in another episode if you want, because, yes. Okay. Then I can get prepared. It’s, it’s not my. You know, topic of excellence, I guess, but I have some ideas. Yeah. And so I can do some [00:51:00] research.

Giancarlo: Amazing. That’s great.

Okay, my friend, listen, thank you so much. Are you familiar with this crazy wisdom teaching? You know, like Yes. The crazy wisdom is like, you know, people like Osho and yes. PARiM Poche. Mm-hmm. And, and, and Aida Samage. Do you know Adida Samage? I do. I do. So, so, so I went to this retreat and the founder leader was a discipline or devotee to, to Adida Samage.

And so now, correct me if I’m wrong, my understanding is that in this tradition, basically they, they consider similar, the pain bodies, the shadow, the demons, the psychological notes that we might have. They, they consider that to be. Almost equal to the ego. And so the idea of the crazy wisdom is that, you know, destroying the ego, but even sometimes forcefully, so in the case of Aida Samra, you know, he was almost obliging people to interact in group sex.

And, and [00:52:00] even if there was some discomfort, that was the ego resisting. And it’s only through breaking through the discomfort and, and, and getting to the ego dissolution that then enlightenment can happen. And so this idea of public humiliation and forcing people and, and, and, and how, I mean, that seems so in contradiction with recent you know, theory of consent and even warism.

What, what, what, what’s, what’s your view of, of crazy wisdom and sexuality?

Raffaello: Huh? Tough one. I mean. It’s a dialogue. It’s a dialogue. This is another cultural polarity that we see at play a lot as you were saying today. I would say today in the realm, in the field of conscious sexuality, there is a lot of suspicion and a lot of sort of like retreating back from these practices that you have defined as crazy wisdom.

Which by the way, you also include je, for [00:53:00] example in credible master that would do all kinds of strange things. What we would consider strange things today to interrupt the patterns of the personality and of the body mind that constantly tries to create safety for itself by controlling the environment, external and internal environment.

So nowadays we are going through a phase where there is a lot of suspicion. You can see it also in this. Big anti cult. You know, I would say almost frenzy, like anything that is not rational, that is not explainable in, in a set of understandable steps is suspicious. Is a cult. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Is a cult.

Yeah. I think there are good reasons for that because obviously you know, crazy wisdom left by itself can lead to all kinds of excesses and abuses of power, and yet at the same time, it’s very important not to throw the baby with the [00:54:00] bath water. The other cultural paradigm where it’s essentially saying each individual should always, or each individual always knows best.

What’s good for them. So you should always be informed about everything that’s gonna happen in an experience before you sign off your consent to it. You should always be asked every single step of the way. Do you want to do it? Yes or no? Do you want to do it? Yes or no? Do you want to do it? Yes or no?

There is a lot of beauty in this because it gives agency to the individual, but there is also a trap and a downfall because that same individual that we’re all now we’re, we’re now giving all this power to and all this authority to, is nothing more at the end of the day than a set of habits, a set of beliefs and a set of preconceptions.

So if we want in any way to transcend it, and we were [00:55:00] talking before about transpersonal, we need to understand that the very clever personality and set of ideas and set of cultural values that has brought us to here. It’s not able to bring us further than this. So how do we solve this paradox, which is, you know, I want to go beyond what I know and what I know to be right.

But at the same time, I don’t want to be pushed into places that would be traumatic or would be, you know, inflicting wounds to my personality that I wouldn’t be able to recover from. So it’s a very tricky point. Yeah. And I guess all of us that are working in this field are trying to do our best to navigate between these two, two extremes.

You know, one is like total chaotic, crazy wisdom, non-consensual enlightenment. If you wanna put it in a, in a funny way, that’s an extreme. But also the cult of consent and the cult of. The individual that [00:56:00] knows best all the time is nothing more than a product of our hyper individualized society. So how can we walk in between these two extremes?

Giancarlo: Yeah,

Raffaello: and that’s a, that’s an alive question for me every day.

Giancarlo: Yeah. But I feel, you know, once you create a safe container, then you allow the individual to allow to go out of his own comfort zone. But willingly, you know, I think this is the third way, right? Where, where you push, but where you are, you push yourself out of your comfort zone, maybe even radically, but you are still aware that it’s your choice.

Raffaello: Yeah. I mean, that sounds great, you know, and then actually putting that in practice is very difficult because what, you know, even when we create containers, like in, in, let’s say groups of people or retreats, there is always a bunch of trade-offs that we’re working with. Between safety and spontaneity, for example, between structure and flow, between listening to [00:57:00] each individual in the group, but also listening to the group.

You know, sometimes an individual could bring so many needs and wants and that the group is suffering from that. But at the same time, if we forget about the individual and then just pay attention to the group, we will create a harm for the individual. So it’s very tricky. There isn’t an easy answer to that, but we’re, you know, both you and I and many others are in there doing our best with our heart and sometimes making mistakes and learning from them.

For sure.

Giancarlo: Yeah. Thank you, Rafa. Definitely, you’re definitely doing your best. I think your contribution to the space is so valuable. So how people can if, how can people find you and work with you? Where, where would you direct them to you direct or to your private practice?

Raffaello: No, you can direct them to my webpage, Rafa Lo, my name Life with Double F, double L, and a final O Rafa Life.

And everything I do is in in there. Both my work with Ista, my private. [00:58:00] Work. My retreat on embodied archetypes that I just launched this year, it’s gonna happen in September in Spain. Oh, nice. As well as podcasts. Like this one, one that’s in person,

Giancarlo: the archetype. Yes, yes, yes. I’m gonna come, I’m gonna come.

When is that?

Raffaello: September 12th to 17th in the south of Spain. You’re very warmly invited.

Giancarlo: Yes, yes, yes. I’m gonna, I’m gonna check, I’m gonna check the website. Rafa, thank you so much. And thank you. I want to put on records that you show you, give me your availability to discuss fetish and sexual Sure.

Sexual deconditioning. This idea that, you know, they say, show me your friends. I’ll tell you who you are. Show me what you eat, and I’ll tell you who you are. And these are, show me your

Raffaello: fetish

Giancarlo: and I’ll tell you who you are.

Raffaello: Exactly.

Giancarlo: Thank you. Thank you, Rafa. Thank you very much.

Raffaello: Bye-bye. Big hug, and bye-bye.

Bye-bye Next [00:59:00] time.