60: Robert Mitchell Astrology Series: The Language of the Cosmos

Robert Mitchell – website

Stan Grof
Richard Tarness – Documentary  
Carl Jung
Vedic Astrology
Mayan Astrology
Western Astrology
Chinese Astrology
Vedic Astrologer – Chakrapani
Jung – Quote – “Who looks outside…”
Astrology – Origins
Galileo – Astrologer
Dane Rudhyar – Astrologer
Liz Green – Astrologer
Jung – Depth Psychology
James Hillman -Depth Psychology
Freud – Unconscious Mind
Joseph Campbell – Depth Psychology
Wolfgang Pauli
Howard Sasportas
Elon Musk – Astrology Chart
Elon – Love
Elon – Don Lemon Interview
Elon – Lex Fridman Podcast
Elon – Walter Isaacson
Jung – Synchronicity
The Double -Slit Experiment
Retrocausality
Jung – Unbounded Psyche
Taylor Swift – Astrology Chart
Jim Morrison – Father – Vietnam
Rick Tarnas – Psyche Unbound
Human Design
James Oroc – 5-MeO DMT
Brad Pitt – Astrology Chart
Father John Misty – Taylor Swift – Rolling Stone
Jung – Unconscious & Fate

Giancarlo: [00:00:00] Hello, hi, welcome to the first episode of a new product, forgive the marketing term. Basically we are trying to do a little bit of a hybrid between a workshop and a, and a traditional Mango TV podcast, which is really a conversation and interview. I thought about doing something a little bit different.

Thanks to Robert Mitchell that I hope you guys know from a previous episode on on the podcast on astrology. [00:01:00] I decided to ask Robert if we could do something a little bit more in depth, something more like a course and Robert very gracefully accepted. So, so this is the first, you know, first episode of this kind.

Robert also gave me a reading of my, of my chart and, you know, it was interesting. I understood maybe 20 percent 

So, 

so, but, you know, intuitively, intuitively, I feel that this is an important language, you know, even more, it might be the language of the universe. As some of the you know, listener knows is that, you know, we always talk about the con the cosmic consciousness.

Is consciousness out there everywhere or just in your brain? Is the cosmos alive? Is this a big, gigantic organism? Are we part of, are we part of [00:02:00] something infinite? And, and, but, and if we do This whole planetary, you know, enchilada out there, like Ramda says, might, might not only affect our operating system, but we can maybe even use it, understand it.

And then. My hero Stan Grof was you know, was looking very deep in astrology and his student Tarnas you know, they just made a documentary on, on, on his study and, and and so, and then, and then, and then Robert, and then Robert, thanks to his charm and, and, and combined with wisdom and knowledge and sense of humor, so, made me, you know, intrigue me.

You said something that you said, you said that Jung, Jung said that astrology taught me more than psychology. 

Robert: I can give you the quote. He said, Jung said that astrology Contains everything that I [00:03:00] found in my psychology, and I’m not certain that my psychology has anything to offer. It’s older sister.

Giancarlo (2): Exactly. 

Robert: That’s the quote. Yeah. That’s what she means in astrology, was that quote from Jung, because I was studying Jung in college, and he was so taken with it. 

Giancarlo: Yeah. And so, and then, you know, as the Mango TV listeners knows, I hope is that, you know, ultimately what we are interested here is in you know, in healing and, and, and self connection and personal growth and human potential.

So we’ll see. So we decided with Robert to do four episodes. So, okay. So for people that have not Heard the episode with Robert. I’m gonna read again his bio. Robert Mitchell is a religious and Jungian scholar, a Western psychedelic lineage holder, an astrologer, a practical mystic, a podcaster, and a writer.

He received an undergrad degree in religious studies from Syracuse [00:04:00] University and a master’s in counseling from the California Institute of Integral Studies. For 30 years, he has worked worldwide to strengthen people’s relationship with the transpersonal intelligence that animates their life. Exactly, that’s what I find interesting.

He uses tools of Western esoterica that include astrology, psychedelics, meditation and dreaming. His specific interest is working with the unique, unique structure of the consciousness of the individual, while demythologizing the psychedelic experience, removing the need to fetishize it or make it something exotic.

His motto is people don’t need to use more pachydelics. They need to be more psychedelic. So thank you very much, Robert. I thought. to maybe do four episodes on, on, on his astrology, because my basic knowledge from my basic knowledge of astrology, I think [00:05:00] that there is Western astrology, Vedic astrology, Mayan astrology, and Chinese astrology.

Is that right? 

Robert: I use Western astrology. You know, I think all astrology, it’s, it’s like language. It’s like Italian is a language, English is a language, Spanish is a language, Hindi is a language. They’re languages, you know, and they’re all talking about the same thing. So, so I, I once had, I was talking to someone about this the other day.

I once saw this very famous Vedic astrologer in Los Angeles whose name was Chakrapani. He’s no longer alive. I was all excited to hear about Vedic astrology and he told me all the exact same things that were in my Western chart. He just told me it from his perspective, you know, and, and so I think all of these astrologies, they develop, you know, another thing that Jung thought was he thought that the real opportunity that astrology offered [00:06:00] was it allowed.

The wisdom aspect of each person’s psyche to project itself onto something. So whether it’s Mayan or Chinese or Vedic or Western, it comes from the person who’s perceiving 

Giancarlo (2): it’s and, 

Robert: and hopefully it activates. Something in their depths, like a dream does, or like a poem does and allows them to speak for the intelligence.

Behind the person’s life, because the assumption is that our lives are not random and that each one of us has a unique transformational potential in our life that was there at the moment of our birth, that there’s a logos, there’s a meaning, and I don’t think it really matters which one you use. What matters?

is that we assume that there are mechanics behind physical reality and their [00:07:00] mechanics behind our lives that are purposeful and intentional and caring about our development and that we can Each person can kind of yoke these energies as they become aware of them and be more conscious of their play in their lives and realizing that their lives are not random and that their consciousness has a structure and that the structure of their consciousness.

forms their experience. It’s not happening to them. It’s happening from them. Like, more like a movie projector 

Giancarlo (2): than, 

Robert: than a movie screen. That’s, that’s sort of, that’s sort of how I understand all the astrologies. 

Giancarlo: Yeah. Yeah. That’s, that’s, that’s, that’s how you got my interest. This idea. the structure of consciousness and how is then connected with the structure of the cosmic consciousness and understanding that dance.

Okay. So I asked Robert, listen, let’s do four episodes. [00:08:00] How would you divide them? And how would you call them? So I’ll just read them. And then maybe Robert can briefly explain what they’re going to be and why you chose them. And then we finally jump on episode one. So he recommended one. Astrology, the language of the cosmos to God dreams of you three times of transformation for astrology, more intimate than memory.

Tell us a little bit why this for title? Why and what, and what, what they’re about. 

Robert: Okay. Well, so the first one is a straw, the language of the cosmos. Is that what we said? Yeah, because. My, my pre puppet supposition in the work that I do is that we all come from a unit of intelligence. And it’s the same intelligence that has created the physical universe as a byproduct of its [00:09:00] creative consciousness, right?

And it doesn’t require the physical universe to exist. And so with quantum physics, you know, physicists say that 96 percent of reality is nonphysical. And that’s a universe, but the universe is 12 billion light years wide. So you got to think that that’s really only 4%. of, of, of, of the, the capacity of that consciousness.

And what astrology does is it shows that each one of us. emanates from this consciousness. I do, you do your children, do your wife does my children, you know, even Donald Trump, you know, and, and that, that through each of us, the, the generative consciousness experiences a porthole. into physical reality and sees what can be done here and sees what can be transformed.

So in [00:10:00] each person’s astrology chart, you see a unique challenge or a unique directive that, that that’s trying to be transformed into something else. And mostly that happens through challenges. And so you can see what somebody’s built in challenges are at the moment of their birth through the arrangement of the solar system.

And it’s not so much that you’re a certain way because your son’s in Sagittarius or, or you’re, you know, your Mercury could be in Gemini. It’s not like those planets are beaming down on you, creating an experience. Basically what astrology is, is that there’s mechanics behind physical reality. There’s the, and you could say there were quantum mechanics if you like.

And that that means that the implicit order is how somebody’s, how the, how the solar system was arranged at the moment somebody was born. [00:11:00] And then what astrology talks about is the explicit order. It talks about why were things like that? What were the archetypes that were arranged in the solar system at that moment?

And why was that moment, the moment that you appeared, you know, and, and what are the dynamics, what are the logistics of that that proceed the Encounter with life that is to come and, and, and so what I always say is you can see people’s parents in their astrology chart, you can see their predilections, you can see their struggles, but you can see that the day they’re born when they don’t even know their parents yet and their parents don’t know them and that what that basically means is that the structure of your consciousness projects out into the world and shapes your experience.

And the power of that experience comes from the unit of consciousness. That’s the engine behind [00:12:00] everybody’s experience. And we’re all a part of it, you know, at my, at my origin, at your origin, it’s the same origin. And our history and our biography comes from that, you know, it comes from that, those tendencies and everybody just looks at their history and their biography and says, my parents were like this.

My environment was like this. But what astrology says is you’re like this and you connect the things around you. That inform you about that so you can transform that through the struggle through the challenges of your life and through the pressures, you know, like I think young spoke a lot about the polarity in consciousness and how there are pressures between this and this and they’re supposed to become this, you know, through their, through their engagement with one another and through, Through the conflicts that we have, you know, that’s how we transform.

We transform [00:13:00] in our understanding of ourselves and other people. And once those transformations happen, we can share them with others. And that’s our benefit to the collective. So that would be, you know, my premise of, of, of astrology being the language of the cosmos. 

Giancarlo: But just, just to go one step back, who invented this language of the Cosmo?

So it was, it was the first appear, it was the Sumerian. 

Robert: You know, I think, I think it’s the kind of thing it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s like I think it appeared in a lot of places. I think historically it’s, it’s not as important. You know, you can say it’s Sumerian. You can say, you know, it appeared in the Kabbalah.

You can say it appeared in China. You can say, you know, probably. In Mayan culture, you know, and all these cultures, it appeared in what basically people noticed was they were able to map what was a visible to them and what’s visible from earth are the planets at certain times. 

Giancarlo (2): And 

Robert: so people were able, you know, I, I think that [00:14:00] one of the things about astrology is astrology is only as germane and only as.

Relevant as the people who use it. So it really is something that human consciousness oriented itself towards to explain the experience of being human. Does that make sense? And and it was, you know, at that time, at the time when astrology was first discovered, you know, things were only visible by the naked eye and as tools and instruments.

became available and you could see more planets. There was more dexterity and more depth that we could see into the structure of the human psyche. Because, you know, young, young, young had that saying he who looks outside, he who looks inside seas and he who looks outside dreams. [00:15:00] And when, when we start to orient ourself towards, towards the cosmos, what we’re really seeing is ourselves.

Giancarlo: Yeah. Who looks inside awake. Yeah. 

Robert: And, and, and what we’re seeing, what we’re seeing is we’re seeing the structure of our own consciousness wherever we look. And that’s really what astrology comes out of. 

Giancarlo: But so let me ask you this, Robert, forgive me. I come a little bit as a, you know, like a beginner mind.

So, so let’s say two, three, whatever thousand years ago. Maybe simultaneously, maybe five, five, 5,000. , . Maybe. Maybe simultaneously People, yes. People in China, in the Sumerian and in in the Latin America, they were looking at the sky and they saw these different constellation that would, that every month would be in different places.

Robert: Yeah. They’d, they’d have, they’d, they’d be moving the constellations, move behind the planets. ’cause they’re so far away. 

Giancarlo: Yeah. 

Robert: [00:16:00] And then like what you can also say about that is that’s also a projection of the human unconscious. So to see Sagittarius and see those stars and say there’s an archer there, I can see an archer, you know, or, or, or to see, you know, other stars and say, I see a lion there, 

Giancarlo (2): or to 

Robert: see other stars and say, I see twins, you know, that also is a projection of human consciousness.

You know, that, that, that comes from within us. It doesn’t come, there’s no objective reality about those things. So, so through people agreeing about those things, it’s like people agreeing about Star Wars being a great movie. It’s, it’s a collective, it’s like a, it’s, it’s a collective dream. It’s a collective muse on, on, on where we are in the universe.

Giancarlo: I see. But, and then how, how did the knowledge develop just empirically? Because these [00:17:00] different civilization would then associate human event with some sort of planetary configuration. 

Robert: You know, it’s another, it’s another aspect, you know. You know, people were interested in the predictive nature of astrology.

Like if the planets were here, this was going to happen. If the planets were here in relationship to your natal structure, that was going to happen. And that again, that is again, projection of human wisdom. You know, there’s no objective facts out there. About these things, you know, saying that that’s the archer or that’s a ram.

That’s a human projection. And then to associate, well, what do I associate with a ram or with an archer or when Mars is, is, has the archer behind it, which, which means Mars is in Sagittarius. What are the aspects of consciousness that are reflected by that development? You know, and, and how is that going to affect my, my life?

How is that going to affect, [00:18:00] how is that going to affect the tribe? How’s that going to affect our civilization? That’s really been the interest in astrology, you know, from the beginning was, how can we understand the mechanics of reality so that we can align ourselves with them and not be opposed by them and, and, and make choices that.

Reflect the fact that we know that it knows that we know, you know, that, that, that’s really been the interest. And, you know, it’s been used, you know, it’s been used by militaries. It’s been used by leaders. You know, Hitler had had a band of astrologers, you know, Ronald Reagan’s wife had him using astrologers, you know, and really, that’s really trying to reverse engineer things.

You know, that’s trying to reverse engineer. Like, how do we use this knowledge for our advantage for our tactical advantage? And that’s sort of like, how do we decide what we’re going to dream about tonight? You know, it’s sort of outside our [00:19:00] volition. And it’s really about aligning ourselves with maybe some objective reality that has infested interest in us.

as a individual, as a collective. You know, I think that’s always been the interest in astrology since it’s been discovered. And now it’s in the back of Cosmopolitan magazine.

Giancarlo: But so in the history of the discovery of this language, do you, are you aware if there was like, you know, like tipping point, is there a specific period where this knowledge, this wisdom really reached a level of. know, sophistication that could, I mean, I would imagine that at the beginning it was very rough, 

Robert: you know, as people were able to use telescopes and see further, as soon as there was astronomy, there was astrology and the [00:20:00] same people who were the famous.

Astronomers were astrologers. They were able to finally look into the, look into the Milky Way and see stars and say, these stars are here and these stars are there. And they immediately thought, well, why are they there? 

Giancarlo: Yeah. What’s the first telescope was invented in Netherland in. 1608, late 16th century, 

Robert: like Galileo was, he was as much an astrologer as he was an astronomer.

You know, it was, it was an interwoven. It was an inter, like there was no way to be interested in astronomy without being interested in astrology because otherwise it was just like a two dimensional kind of meaningless spatial relationship between stars and a map. But astrology gave it meaning.

Astrology gave it intent. Astrology meant God is invested in this in some way. And, you know, what, what we call cosmic [00:21:00] consciousness or, you know, that they would at that time called God. 

Giancarlo: Yes. And okay. But so in who are the most famous astrologers for you? 

Robert: Oh, that’s a really, that’s a really good question.

Well, an astrologer, I presently, you know, the all timer, the one who’s like the young of astrology, I would think of as Dane Rudhyar. 

Giancarlo: Yes, we’ll put, we’ll put, we’ll put the name on the show note. 

Robert: Yeah. He was, he was, he was sort of like a 20th century astrologer and he was very influenced by Jung, but he was also a musician and sort of saw astrology as the language, as a, as a musical language.

of the universe. And I think a lot of his writing is intuitive. There is also a woman named Liz green who went through the young institute in Zurich and [00:22:00] basically created her own take on astrology, which is heavily mythologized, but it’s really about depth psychology. It’s really about the depth of the archetypes of the signs.

And, you know, I think, I think it’s important for people to know that what they think of as astrology, what most people think of as astrology are the sun sign columns, you know, you’re a Sagittarius, I’m a Leo, you know, like, that’s how, that’s how people think, you know, that’s what people think about, you know, whenever I, Scroll through Instagram.

There’s always some really pretty woman talking about what Aries are like.

And, and the reality is, is we’re all made up of these archetypes, like an atom. You know, and, and oftentimes I, I, I see an astrology chart, like like an atomic structure, but we’ve all got different versions of these makeups. You know, our consciousness is like a [00:23:00] hologram and we all have these different bands, these different archetypes of the 12 arranged differently within us in, in a unique pattern.

And the archetypal nature of that is going to be realized in our experience. And I think that that’s why it’s important to bring depth psychology. You know, Jung thought that the future of depth psychology was going to be a combination of depth psychology and physics. 

Giancarlo: So remind me, remind me the definition of depth psychology again, sorry.

Robert: You know, I think that’s what Jung, you know, I think that’s what Jung thought he was working on. He was working in the depths of the unconscious. 

Giancarlo: I see. 

Robert: You know, and it’s, it’s been taken forward by like James Hillman, people like that. You know, depth psychology is, you know, with Freud, it was all, it’s, it’s all drives and frustrated drives and sex and all that sort of things.

And, and Jung would say, no, there’s actually a deeper, [00:24:00] there’s a deeper aspect to consciousness that’s collective. You know, that the further you go, the more we share. And the way he found that was he found similar mythologies in Africa. And then with native Americans, you know, and, and as he traveled, he found similar stories.

And, and he realized that there was this band of consciousness beyond our culture that was just transhuman and that it got expressed differently in different cultures, but it was the same dynamics that created the same kind of stories. And so the unconscious. You know, in, in, in Freud’s notion was mostly personal, you know, it was mostly frustrated desires, you know, and with Jung, he thought there was a transpersonal nature to it, and so it was like, at our, it was at a depth, you know, it was at a deeper level, Joseph Campbell spoke about this a lot, and, you know, I think Jung also spoke a lot with [00:25:00] Wolfgang Pauli, Who was a physicist of his time, and he was also friendly with Einstein.

And so he took a lot of the thinking of the time, which was with physics, which was going to develop into quantum physics. And he integrated that into his understanding of how consciousness functioned and like, like in quantum physics, he thought consciousness was a priori, meaning there was a consciousness in each person that their ego.

Was was the tip of the iceberg of. You know, and down below there were bigger structures and more profound structures and, you know, in depth psychology and, and the way that impacts astrology is you can see those structures in people’s astrology charts that are going to precede their experience. So I never look at somebody’s astrology chart and think like, Oh, I wonder if this is true.

You know, the premise is the chart doesn’t lie. So if you [00:26:00] see the archetypal structures in people’s astrology charts, You know that this is going to be part of their experience because it’s the engine behind their experience. It’s the filter that, that unit of consciousness makes itself aware of itself through them.

And, and so that, that sort of, you know, I went off on a bit of a tangent and then there’s another wonderful astrologer named Howard Sass Bordas who’s not, no longer alive. And Daniel Rudiar is no longer alive either, who wrote a lot about transits. And transits are that the planets continue to move after you’re born and the mechanics of physical reality continue to move them in a certain way.

And when those planets come into geometric relationships with your natal structure, things are going to happen in your experience that are designed to transform your consciousness. you [00:27:00] know, so that conflicts are going to be born or unconsciousness will be raised up so that you can become conscious of it.

And that that’s happening all the time for people, but it’s happening differently for each person according to their unique structure. So that’s going on for you and everybody, you know, and it’s identifiable. You know, and, and you can align yourself with its lessons and welcome its guidance and let go of the things that it’s asking you to let go and go of that are no longer serving you.

And, and I like to see, you know, we have such a materialistic worldview. And so much of our experience in our materialistic worldview is transitory. It’s just what I want right now. I want to be comfortable. I want this relationship to work out because it makes me feel a certain way. I want to get this work.

I want to be seen the certain way. [00:28:00] And all of those things are transitory things. Those are desires of an ego that’s usually built up like a callous. to just make this sensitive, incredible consciousness, feel safe in the world and comfortable. And I think life and, and the challenges that you see in somebody’s astrology chart is how can I separate the transitory?

for the eternal. And when you speak about cosmic consciousness, it’s interested in the eternal. It’s interested in like, what is this eternal process that this person’s going through? That’s going to transform their transit there. It’s going to transform their transitory awareness into something eternal so that they can bring something eternal into their awareness, into their life and into the world.

And to me that’s the foundation of the healing awareness that astrology. makes available to [00:29:00] people if they, if they choose to use it. 

Giancarlo: Okay. So should we look at a chart of someone known? Do you have a chart of someone known that people might know? 

Robert: Whose chart would you like to see? 

Giancarlo: I don’t know. What 

Robert: pops into your head?

We can do a cold reading of anybody. 

Giancarlo: So we’ve been brainstorming a little bit and we picked a man and a woman, which, you know, we thought that Mostly, you know, it was interesting for, for Robert that, you know, he didn’t know their chart by heart. So we picked Elon Musk and Taylor Swift. 

Robert: Yeah. Like that’s what figured those were two big figures in the culture.

They’re not actually people who I’ve looked at their charts before. Cause I just. I wasn’t, I wasn’t compelled to do it, but we can do it for the show. It’ll be fun. 

Giancarlo: Exactly. So let’s start with Elon first, just because he’s the first one you send me. Oh, 

Robert: okay. [00:30:00] Well, basically, you know, in an astrology, in all astrology charts, there’s 12 houses and they start at the, at the Ascendant.

And the Ascendant is the Western most point on the horizon at the moment somebody’s born. And it’s 360 degrees. And so where a lawn must start is at 13 degrees of cancer, which are like, it looks like you know, it looks like a six over a six on the, on the far left of the chart on the, at about nine o’clock, like of what would be nine o’clock on a, on a clock.

And you can see it says 1329. So that’s where his houses began. And then you go counterclockwise down. So there’s the first house, the second, the third, the fourth, the fifth, the sixth, the seventh, then becomes above the horizon, the eighth, the ninth, the tenth, and the eleventh, and the [00:31:00] twelfth, you know, so there’s, there’s 12, there’s 12 houses in a chart.

And basically what you find is if there are planets in people’s houses, then those are fields where they’re going to be engaged, where their consciousness is going to function. And if there aren’t. Planets in somebody’s chart, in somebody’s houses, they’re going to be less engaged in those fields of play.

One 

Giancarlo: second, Robert, let me understand one thing. So the ascendant is the planet which is at the most west. 

Robert: It’s not, it’s not a planet. It’s actually the horizon where the horizon cuts into the Zodiac. I see. So on his, you can see it’s at 13. 29 of cancer, which looks like a six and a nine. That’s the cancer.

So do you see that? 

Giancarlo: But those are, those are coordinate 13, 20. I see. 

Robert: Each, each, each sign has 30 degrees. in the Zodiac because there’s [00:32:00] 360 degrees and 12 signs. So, so the, as the Zodiac is, is, is rotating during the day when something falls within that sign, it’s somewhere between zero and 30 degrees. I see.

And that’s why there’s no cusps. There’s no cut. Like somebody says, Oh, I’m cusp. I’m born on July 20th. So they don’t, they think, Oh, maybe I’m a cancer. Maybe I’m a Leo. And it’s either 2959 of cancer or at zero zero of Leo. So there are no real cusps. It’s either 1259 and 59 seconds or it’s one o’clock.

Giancarlo: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And so, so What is what is Elon’s Ascendant then? His Ascendant is in 

Robert: Cancer. In Cancer. And if you look above that, you see that his Sun, which is the, which is the circle [00:33:00] with a dot in it, is also in Cancer. So he’s a double Cancer. He’s a double Cancer, and if you want to see it as Moon is, you, you travel through the first house into the second, and you see that his Moon is at eight degrees.

of Virgo. That’s that M with a, with a, with a arm hanging off it. So he’s a, he’s a double cancer with a, with a moon in Virgo. Like that, that’s, that’s how you’d, how you’d see him. 

Giancarlo: But so what, what are the characteristics of the cancer? 

Robert: Well, you know, it’s really interesting. So it’s a water sign. And so all water signs, Pisces, Scorpio, and Cancer, they’re, they’re very feminine.

Giancarlo (2): They’re 

Robert: very emotional. They’re very primitive and cancer is the most primitive of them all. And so one of the things that you’re going to know when you see that somebody’s cancer is that in their environment that they grew up [00:34:00] in, they all the water signs orient themselves primarily towards their mother.

They, they get an emotional sense of themselves. Through their relationship with their mother. And you know, what’s really interesting about that is, you know, you see that, you know, I’m just, I’m just extrapolating this extrapolating on this spontaneously, you know, you see a lawn must mother, you know, you see her as a figure in his life, but you also see, I’ve also heard him say, and this is just occurring to me now is that he’s never happy unless he’s in love.

Like if he’s not with a woman, if he’s not happy, he feels really lost. And that’s that primary identification with the feminine, this felt sense. And then also you see, you see the other day. In his interview with Don Lemon, where he started to feel uncomfortable and he started to feel unsafe and how he brought things to an end and his emotional comfort would be so important to [00:35:00] him, you know, he’d feel very vulnerable, you know, he’s a lot more vulnerable than he’d appear as this kind of like master of the universe, but you know, sometimes people become masters of the universe because they feel really vulnerable.

And being masterful and being in command makes them feel like safe and that they’re not going to be hurt. So as funny as it sounds, and there’s things that mitigate this, he’d be really sensitive. 

Giancarlo (2): He’d be really, 

Robert: he’d be really sensitive to criticism. He’d be really sensitive. to emotional upset. He’d be really sensitive.

I always say to people about cancer people that you have to imagine them like they have a tail with a barb attached to it and the barb goes down into the primordial muck, which is where they’re getting their nutrition, their nutritive sense of feeling safe. So there’s a primitiveness to them. There’s a primitive emotionality [00:36:00] to, to to cancer people that you always have to engage and understand.

And then the other thing about it is because they’re so vulnerable, you have to think of them like a crab, meaning they do things sideways because they never want people to confront them and say, I don’t like you or I don’t like this or no, I won’t give you what you’re asking from me. So they kind of do it sideways.

And they kind of go, there’s this great scene in this movie diner. That’s a very cancer scene. And there are two friends who are old friends and they go to the diner late at night and you get it since they’ve done this a hundred times and one of them orders a Coke and one of them orders a turkey sandwich or some kind of sandwich.

And the guy who orders the Coke is the cancer. And he goes to his friend, he goes, so you can eat that whole sandwich. And the friend [00:37:00] goes, why do you want some? And he goes, well, if you’re not going to eat the whole thing, I’ll have some. And the friend who’s seen this a hundred times goes, just ask me for the sandwich and I’ll give you half the sandwich.

And he goes, no, no, no, no, no, no, not if you’re, if you’re hungry, eat the whole sandwich. And that is a very, like, I always think of that in terms of cancer because it risks so much expressing its needs. It risks so much. Somebody saying, no, I don’t want to give that to you. Cause it’s so vulnerable. And so as, as, as dynamic and as sort of powerful as, as, as Elon Musk is, you have to understand about him that there’s this innate sensitivity and vulnerability that he’s trying to protect by all of his machinations, you know, and in dealing with him, anybody who was dealing with him, the successful way of dealing with him would be acknowledging that to yourself.

Translating a lot of his mastery [00:38:00] into that he’s trying to protect himself, you know And 

Giancarlo: and so all these characteristics are multiplied by two 

Robert: Well, yeah, a large part of him is like that because because he’s a double K his son look Here’s the thing. Here’s an another great way to understand things. So people’s Ascendant is the way that they navigate the world.

And it’s also like a mask. It’s like a persona. So if people are not comfortable, if people are in environments where they don’t know who the people are and they don’t know what they’re doing, or they don’t know who they are, how they’re going to perceive them, they are going to act like their Ascendant because they feel safe in, in doing that.

And your son, everybody’s son is actually, the container of their experience. So I always say it’s like a salad bowl. So like you could, you could, you could, you could, so when you talk about somebody’s son [00:39:00] signed with their cancer or Leo or Sagittarius or Gemini, You’re talking about the kind of bowl that their salad is mixed in, and you know, their salad could be a Chinese chicken salad, or it could be a Waldorf salad, or it could be a beet salad with walnuts, but it’s gonna be in that container, right?

And so for Elon Musk, and for anybody who’s ascendant, their rising sign is the same as their sun sign. It just intensifies that experience because they’re not able to hide as much. Most people can hide behind their ascendant in social situations and professional situations, and they don’t feel like the loci of their being is under threat because people aren’t seeing it.

What people really are, how they really experience themselves is in their sun sign. But because he, Has his son signed and his ascendant and they’re the same. He doesn’t have that kind of screen. So he has this, [00:40:00] he has a sense of vulnerability that would compel him to be in control in almost every situation.

So his vulnerability wouldn’t be exposed. 

Giancarlo (2): Yeah. Yeah. 

Robert: Wouldn’t be you know, when people are vulnerable like that, they are concerned that they’re going to be exploited. And I would imagine in his early environment, he felt exploited. He felt emotionally exploited. 

Giancarlo: Yeah. He said in, in, I heard him on a podcast with Lex Friedman where he said my mind, I have a storm in my mind most of the time.

Robert: Well, you know, that’s a really interesting thing too, because that’s another, I was going to get to that. That’s another thing that. So usually when I look at somebody’s chart, there’s things that are unusual about every person’s chart that makes it unique and not remind me of other people’s charts. And so one of the things you see in his chart, it’s really, there’s a couple of things that, [00:41:00] that, that speak to what you said is, so first of all, if you look at his rising sign in cancer and then you look right below it, his mercury, See that?

That’s Mercury is at 14 degrees of Cancer. 

Giancarlo: Where are we 

Robert: looking? Which house? It’s in the first house. It’s at the beginning of the first house. Yeah. There’s Mercury right there. It looks like, you know, there’s a little Mercury sign right below the Ascendant. 

Giancarlo: Which is 15 degrees, 15 or 6. 14, it says 

Robert: 1403, 1403.

1403, yeah. Yeah. And so also, so what that means is that the moment that he was born, Mercury was at his, Mercury was in the same place. It was on the horizon, right? So what that means is that Mercury, which, which is the mind, it’s the thinking mind. It’s the intellectual mind. It’s the It’s, it’s, it’s not an abstract [00:42:00] mind.

It’s a how does things work kind of mind. It’s an identifying mind. It is there and it’s active in him all the time. You know, he doesn’t have a choice. Mercury, the archetype of Mercury, which is about thinking, how do I think myself out of this? How do I make sense of this? What does it mean? How do I make things work properly?

How am I make myself safe? It’s just all the time. It’s, it’s, it’s merged with his identity. Like he doesn’t have a choice. He’s been taken over by it. When things are conjunct your ascendant, you’ve been taken over by it. It’s, it’s going through your circuitry all the time. 

Giancarlo: But sorry, Robert, forgive me. Tell me again, how did you figure out, figure it out, this association between Mercury and and the state of, you know, cognitive, constant cognitive exploration?

Robert: You know, it’s something that’s been, it’s something that’s been You know, [00:43:00] battle tested over 5, 000 years, you know, for 5, 000 years, people have associated mercury with thinking and with the mind. And then with the, with the sign it’s in and the house placement, you can tell how somebody’s mind functions.

You can tell what their inclination is towards. 

Giancarlo: But, so, okay, so imagine we were in Mesopotamia or in, in, in in in in Mexico, in Mayan time. And so there is a, there is a baby who was born and, you know, the astronomers or, or, or you know, 16th century after they had, you know, telescope they see when, you know, this baby’s born and, and mer Mercury.

Is all the way on the West. 

Robert: Yeah. They’d say Mercury is on their ascendant. It’s good. It would mean that it was right next to the horizon, 

Giancarlo: right next to the horizon. 

Robert: It’d be right there on the horizon. 

Giancarlo: Yeah. So someone decided to keep [00:44:00] track of all that. And then. Yeah. And then empirically, they realize that all the kids that were born when Mercury was next to the horizon, they are very mental.

They be very mental. Yeah. This is like an empirical observation over 5, 000 years. 

Robert: Yes, but the, the, the, the, the structure of the structure of the psyche as astrology sees it is a priori. It is before like, yeah, you could observe that. You could observe that kid born then when they’re 18 and they’re going to be very mental.

They’re going to be very intelligent. They’re going to be very dexterous with their mind. They’re going to, they’re going to be, they’re going to be very verbose. They’re going to be somebody who’s thinking all the time because the archetype that that planet represents, the, the dynamic that, that, that, that, that, that planet represents is implicit in their structure.

It’s implicit in their cognitive structure, in [00:45:00] their engagement with the world. We all reach the world at our ascendant. We interface with the world at our ascendant. We look like our ascendant. We, you know, one of the things that’s funny, I’m thinking about this now, is, you know, Elon Musk has been pretty chubby.

You know, I know he’s doing Ozempic now and stuff like that, but he’s got a, he’s got a, he’s got a he’s got a cancer rising. He’s got a moony round sense and, and vulnerability that is just how he’s engaged with the world. You know, like there, that’s where he interfaces with external reality is in this soft kind of vulnerable, sensitive place.

You know, that’s, there’s just, there’s, there’s no disputing that, you know, and, and then he’s got this mentality that is just trying to make sense of everything. And a lot of it would be self-protective. But 

Giancarlo: we, we, sorry, we said that he was a double cancer, right? Yeah. Meaning that he’s a, he is ascended, is cancer also, and so is his son.

Yes. But [00:46:00] so he, but here, the Mercury then is not on his ascendant. He is on the, oh, his Mercury 

Robert: is on the ascendant. So then you can say, that’s why astrology is so specific, because you can say he’s he’s his. And then we’ll get into how his son is aspected. Cause that’ll add an add a flavor to it too. So you could see, you could say that he has cancer rising, but mercury is rising on cancer.

Mercury’s there and mercury rules, Gemini. And Mercury is, it’s mentation. It’s the mental mind. But so 

Giancarlo: who’s the, who’s the most, so, but you know, the Ascendant is when you’re born, the most West planet next to the horizon. It’s the, 

Robert: there is, there, yes, there’s always a Western horizon. So everybody has a rising sign.

Everybody has an Ascendant. It’s the same word. Ascendant means rising sign. I see, I see. There’s not always planets there. I see that could be [00:47:00] empty and then he would have a much more simplified experience, but so what’s the, what’s, what, what has he got there is 

Giancarlo: mercury. 

Robert: He’s got mercury. He’s got cancer.

He’s got mercury rising in cancer, mercury. Mercury is in Cancer, right next to 

Giancarlo: his Ascendant. But so Cancer very basic question, but Cancer is a con Cancer is a constellation. Constellation. So if 

Robert: you looked out to the West, at the moment he was born, you’d see the constellation Cancer on the horizon.

And, and, and, and Mercury and Mercury between where he was in Pretoria, where he was born is like cancer’s behind that and Mercury is in front of it because the stars are far beyond the solar system. I see. So that’s, what’s really interesting is you see these constellations and then you see planets. Yeah.

Are in the constellations. So, so like, if here’s Sagittarius and [00:48:00] this is Mars, then that’s how you say Mars is in Sagittarius. Yeah. And if it’s out here, it’s going to be in Capricorn. 

Giancarlo: Yeah. And that’s why, that’s why the location is so important because if you are in Australia or in Rome, it looks very different 

Robert: perspective.

Yeah. You’re going to, you’re going to be looking at a different perspective. So the fact that he has Mercury. Rising is means that his mental experience is completely unconscious. It’s powered all the time. It’s primary his, his experience in the world. Like some people go out in the world. They’re like, I like how things smell here.

Or wow, what a pretty view. But if you have mercury there, you’re going to be like, what does this mean? How do I make this work? How do I, how do, who’s that person? What are they doing? What are they trying to do? What do I want to do with myself? You know, it’s just like, it’s just nonstop. It’s nonstop unconscious.

A priori experience is this archetype of mentation. Is going to be. And so, but if like, so if you have Saturn on your [00:49:00] horizon, you’re going to be like, what do I have to do? What work do I have to do to be safe? You know, what, what, what can I manipulate here so that things are, what’s the work I can do so that things are the way I want them here?

You know, if you have Mars there, you’re going to be like, what do I have to do? Who would have to engage? How do I take charge? You know, if I have Neptune there, so I’m just like, Where’s the mystery here? You know, where is that? Where? So if there are planets on people’s rising sign, it’s very powerful and very primary in their experience.

And he not everybody has that. But he has mercury there. So he’s gonna have an extreme. So what you’re gonna what you’re gonna see there is somebody who’s really preoccupied with their intelligence. 

Giancarlo (2): Yeah, 

Robert: and then what you’re also gonna see which is really interesting is 

Giancarlo: Let me comment just on what I just just realized that I listened to His biography by Walter Isaacson and and and it’s [00:50:00] true that he got extremely he’s, he’s, he’s been suffering a lot from breakup with his girlfriends.

Yeah. And that’s, you were saying that there is this, you know, double cancer, strong connection with the feminine, with the mother and you know, you would like, you know, be really depressed for months after a breakup. I remember that now. Yeah. 

Robert: Yeah. No. And I know, I know I’ve seen him talk about that. Like he’s just not happy unless he’s in a relationship.

Giancarlo: Yeah. 

Robert: He’s also had a wife who he’s divorced and married and divorced. You know, like, like he just doesn’t, he thinks his happiness is in women, 

Giancarlo (2): you 

Robert: know? And that’s just a primary archetype that’s in him. You know, he is, he’s so connected to the feminine. He would have had such a overwhelming experience of his own mother.

Giancarlo: Okay. But so let me, let me ask you this. Okay, because you mentioned this concept of archetype. So, so tell us a little bit, what, what’s an archetype? 

Robert: [00:51:00] Archetype. Okay. So when I think about it, you know, in the, I think of it as bands of consciousness. Right. And, and so if you have these bands of consciousness going, it’s almost like, remember I always think of it like this.

Remember those, those electrical balls that it was like 20 years ago and you touch it on the outside and then the electricity would go to your finger. Yeah. See those. So like every, so you can think of somebody’s astrology chart as a map of their consciousness and as the bands of different differing consciousness, how it’s arranged in their container.

Right. And so, so if you have certain archetypes strong and like he does, Like we just spoke about cancer. Like if you have these archetypes, if you have these bands of consciousness, active in your consciousness, they’re going to be active in your life. 

Giancarlo: But so the star signs, they are, can be considered archetype?[00:52:00] 

Robert: Yes. I see. Yeah. So like a Mars, Mars is going to be the way that somebody asserts themselves. Right. And so somebody with Mars and cancer. You know, the way they’re going to assert themselves is in this almost passive aggressive way because they’re not going to want to assert themselves and have somebody say, no, I won’t do that for you or no, I don’t like what you’re doing or what are you doing?

They’re just going to be like more like maybe if I do it and nobody notices what I’m really going for, they’ll leave me alone and I’ll be able to accomplish it without resistance. Whereas like, if someone has Mars in Leo, they’re going to be like, Hey, I’m the organizing principal in this environment. Let me, let me assert myself and then let things fall where they may.

And I’m okay with that. So the archetypes of Mars are going to manifest differently according to the sign that they’re in. 

Giancarlo: I see. I see. Yeah. Yeah. For some reason, when I think about archetype, I think of the archetype of the tarot cards. The [00:53:00] joker, the justice, 

Robert: you know, it’s interesting because astrology and the tarot have a lot.

They share, they share alchemy. They share alchemy. You know, there’s a lot of astrology and tarot because they’re both kind of synchronistic Divination tools, you know, and, and, and really what you’re looking at when you’re looking at astrology chart is you’re looking at a synchronicity. You’re looking at a synchronicity of the arrangement of the solar system in a moment and, and deriving meaning from it.

You know, like, like that’s what, that’s what Jung said. He said, synchronicity was these two unrelated experiences that went, that were united by meaning with astrology. You’re seeing this moment, which is the astrology chart, the arrangement of the, of the solar system at the moment someone’s born, and then your observation of it and deriving meaning from that.

Giancarlo: Yeah. Yeah. I’m going to ask, I’m going to ask some of the animator to put this quote on the [00:54:00] screen. Okay. Tell me again, if synchronicity is when two unrelated event are connected by meaning. 

Robert: Yes. Beautiful. Right. So like, so I’ll give you an example. So if I have a dream about a hawk, you know, last night and I’m dreaming about a hawk and then I walk out into central park today, And when I’m walking, a hawk comes and sits on a branch above me.

Giancarlo (2): Yeah. 

Robert: Now you could say that that dream and that hawk are unrelated, but I had that dream and it happened, you know, two hours later, you know, and I don’t see a hawk any other day, but I see a hawk on the day I dreamed about a hawk. That’s synchronicity. 

Giancarlo: Yeah. And 

Robert: what joins those two unrelated experiences is there’s meaning in that there’s an internal experience that means something to me because I know I had that dream.

That’s what synchronicity is. 

Giancarlo: It’s, it’s like last night, [00:55:00] Rafa had a haircut. And like, and like half an hour after that, we receive a photo of Raphael with the haircut. I mean, how, how, how do you explain that? It’s so weird. No. 

Robert: Well, you know, it’s funny that happens all the time, you know, and, and Jung said, that for those who have eyes that see, synchronicity is happening all the time.

Giancarlo: Yeah. My, my, my friend says that the best way he found to explain this phenomenon is the double slit experiment. Are you familiar with that? The which experiment? Double slit experiment. 

Robert: No, tell me about it. I 

Giancarlo: think it was in the, I’m not sure when sixties or seventies, basically they find they, with this gun that would like shoot subatomic particle, like photons, they, they created these two screens.

And so they shoot this, this photons through the screens. And basically You’ll [00:56:00] see that they form a pattern on the second screen when someone, this is the experiment goes unattended. The moment someone look at this machine, then the pattern change, they call it the, they call it the observer effect. 

Robert: Oh, the observer effect.

Of course. Anything that you observe, you change by observing it. 

Giancarlo: But that’s great. It means that on the subatomic level, just by looking at something, we change the molecular structure of things. Right. But so is that, is that some, is this phenomenon that there’s this, this, can this phenomenon explain premonition or, you know, when, when you see, when, you know, when someone, when someone stares at you from the back for long enough, then you feel it.

Robert: Is it, I think that, look, I think that we are composed of consciousness and that we have physical [00:57:00] We have physical tools for that, whether it’s our hearing, our seeing, our hearing, you know, our touch, all that sort of stuff. And so when we apply our consciousness to somebody else, we pick up on it, you know, in our physical bodies.

Giancarlo (2): Yeah. You know, 

Robert: I think, I think that, that that’s part of it, but also I think that, you know, part of, part of like, causality and physics, which means that the future bears as much of an influence on the present as the past does. And I think that oftentimes has to do with synchronicity with, with precognition.

Giancarlo: That’s, that’s difficult to understand though. How do you call it? It was, how is this concept called in physics? Metro 

Robert: causality. 

Giancarlo: But so how can the future, who didn’t happen yet, impact the present? 

Robert: Because, because [00:58:00] reality is like a wave. Physical reality is like a wave. It’s not like, it’s not as much like a particle and there’s a wave that goes out from, and, and Jung would say this too.

He would say the, the unconscious is unbound by materialism. It’s unbound by time. And so the unconscious knows as much about the future. Like your ego knows about the past because it saw it and it recognized it and it, and it identified it. But he would say the unconscious stretches out from the past.

And it stretches out into the future. So if you’re, if your ego is getting information from, from the, from the unconscious, it can be getting future information as well. And I would say, I have an example of this. So I record my dreams, you know, I write them down in a book and then about every six months I put them into my computer.

And sometimes I’m lazy about it. Sometimes it’ll be a year. Well, I think in [00:59:00] like March of 2002, I saw that on September 6th, 2011, I dreamed that I was walking in New York City and that there were airplane parts falling out of the sky. Whoa. And, and so, so I think that your unconscious, it’s not your ego.

It’s not what you’re observing. It’s not what you’re mentating. It’s it, your unconscious is out connected to everything. It’s connected to your birth. It’s connected to your death. It’s connected. And so part of what retro causality would account for is things like love at first sight. You know, you have love at first sight because your unconscious is connected to the future where you’re with this person.

Giancarlo: Well, I will do some research on that. That’s difficult to digest as a concept for me. Okay. But okay, so, going back to, to Lionel Musk. Yes, what else can you tell us? Okay, 

Robert: so, so, then, then the, and I’ve used Elon Musk as an example of this, about what I’m [01:00:00] about to point out, is so, Elon Musk, like Steve Jobs, Is he’s got a very heavy, you’re okay.

You’re Ronnie and influence in his consciousness. And so when you see where you’re honest is, I always make a point not to say Uranus because everyone thinks that’s funny, but you’re honest is the proper, is the proper terminology. Yeah. Okay. So in his third house, so you go one, two, three, you know, you see.

You see what looks like the starship enterprise and then like someone saying goal, right? You see that? Yes. Yes. Okay. So what again what you’re seeing what you see in people’s astrology charts is you see recurring themes That deepen the archetypal imprint of their consciousness. And so here in the third house Which is ruled by Mercury.

So every, every house is ruled by a planet. So the first [01:01:00] house is Aries and Mars. The second house is Taurus and Venus. The third house is Mercury and Gemini. The fourth house is The moon and cancer. The fifth house is Leo and the sun. The sixth house is Virgo and again, Mercury. The seventh house is is Libra and Venus.

The eighth house is Scorpio and Pluto. The ninth house is Sagittarius and Jupiter. The 10th house is Saturn and Capricorn. The 11th house is Aquarius and Uranus, and the 12th house is Pisces and Neptune. So these are these houses. Also, they contain these archetypal playgrounds. And if there’s planets within those houses, they’re going to be [01:02:00] engaged in the work of these playgrounds.

Giancarlo: Sorry, Rob. This house and this association with the planets, those are the, for everybody that you just described. For everybody. Everybody’s 

Robert: 12th house is, is naturally ruled by Pisces and Neptune. 

Giancarlo: I 

Robert: see. Everybody’s. Everybody’s first house is ruled by Mars and Aries. So when you find things in people’s first house, there are things that they’re going to lead with.

Because that’s how they’re engaging the world. That’s their martial force. And so you see in his first house, he’s got mercury. So he’s engaging the world with thinking with his thinking mind all the time. It’s totally unconscious. Now, when, when I want to talk about his Uranian nature, Like Uranus, I show you it’s the Starship Enterprise in the third house.

You can see the houses because it said they’re numbered. You can see it says one. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So in his third house, he’s got Pluto and Uranus. But the third house again is ruled by Mercury, right? So again, he’s got, he’s [01:03:00] got play in this field of Mercury. So again, you see, of course he’s mental all the time and he can’t stop thinking because not only does he have mercury rising, but he’s got Uranus and Pluto in his third house, which is ruled by mercury.

So it’s like a chocolate, chocolate chip kind of consciousness, right? Anyway, so his, your, so then when he’s got there is. Uranus is, you see those two lines going up to the left? They’ve got squares on them. Yeah. Red lines. And one goes to his son, which is at five degrees of cancer and one goes to his mercury, which is at 14 degrees of cancer.

Wait, 

Giancarlo: I, I, the, the, I see these two lines from the fifth house to the 11th house. 

Robert: No, no, no. From the third house to the. First house and the 12th house. It’s going, it’s going to one. 

Giancarlo: Yeah. Three to one and three to 12. Yeah. With the two square. Yeah. [01:04:00] 

Robert: And so, okay. So in astrology, there’s three transpersonal planets and they, they, they each represent an aspect of transpersonal consciousness and they are Uranus.

Neptune and Pluto. And if you are aspected, meaning you can see he’s squared to his son and squared to his Mercury. If these planets are aspected to your natal structure, that transpersonal consciousness is going to come through you. It’s not, it’s not a choice. It’s going to want to come through into your consciousness.

And so Elon Musk is incredibly Uranian as Steve Jobs was, and Uranus. It’s about

bringing things into being that haven’t existed before in human capability. So a Uranian [01:05:00] person, like the way Steve Jobs was Uranian was he went, okay, computers, they’re as big as a room. 

Giancarlo (2): Everybody should 

Robert: have their own. And everyone went, Oh, great idea. But he did it, right? It’s it’s obvious. And so Elon Musk goes, electric cars, they look like a toaster.

Nobody wants one. I’ll make electric cars, the coolest cars. And then everybody will want one. And everybody goes, Oh, great idea. Right. And so what you’re, and so another thing to understand is that astrology is ruled by Uranus. So in the world, people go, Oh, you have to get to know people. I’m very Uranian person as well.

You get to know people, you find out about their history, you date them for a while. And I just go, you look at their astrology chart and all the information’s there, right? You can link it up. All the information’s there. [01:06:00] All, all I, you know, let’s not spend 20 years getting to know each other. Let’s look, let’s look at their, when my kids were born, I went home.

I went, okay, everybody good. And I went home and looked at their astrology charts and I went, Oh, well, this is who I am to them. I can’t do much about that. This is how they’re going to function there in their consciousness. This is what they’re going to be good at. This is what they’re not gonna be good at.

And then I could just empathize towards that, right? That’s a very Uranian way to parent. I see. And, and so, but the thing about Uranus is it’s not interested in conventions. It doesn’t notice conventions. It just, so if you, so if a really Uranian person, it doesn’t look around and go like, how does everybody else live?

I’m going to do that too. It goes, it doesn’t go, Oh, I’m getting a big house with a two car garage. And I’m gonna have four kids. It goes, Oh, I’m gonna sleep in the office and have kids with everybody. You know, it doesn’t use, it doesn’t use previous model. [01:07:00] You know, because it’s not interested in previous models because it feels if a previous model if it already exists It’s not progressive so uranium people Oftentimes what I say to people about some people go Yeah, I want that two car garage and the kids and then other people go I want to have purple hair And and a safety pin in my nose, but they’re saying, I don’t want to be like that.

You know, they’re still being conventional by doing that. Uranian people are just kind of going, what are you talking about? They’re not even noticing. Right. So he’s not noticing. He’s not noticing what the conventions are. And. And he’s interested in technology and he’s interested in progress. And he’s also in a way he’s interested in the democratization of information, which him taking over, you know, when he says that X, it’s like the town hall, you know, it’s the modern day town hall.

Yeah. He thinks he’s democratizing free speech and Uranus is really [01:08:00] interested in democracy. 

Giancarlo (2): The 

Robert: internet is a really Iranian tool because it democratizes information. You know, when we were kids, if we wanted to know about something, we had to look in the world book. Remember the way, you know what I mean?

Ordered 26 volumes of the world book. And if you wanted to know about South Africa, you’d go to the S one and pull it out. But if you didn’t have a family that had the 26 volume world book, you were kind of out of luck. You had to go to the library. But now if I want to find out about Pretoria, I just put Pretoria into a search engine and it just completely democratizes information.

That’s the, that’s the, that’s the archetype of the time. Well, he is a avatar. Of Uranus, just like Steve Jobs was an avatar of Uranus and neither one of them was particularly warm 

Giancarlo: a little bit on the spectrum. 

Robert: Yeah, because that’s not what Uranus is interested in. Uranus is interested in progress. So you can also [01:09:00] see that like.

Like Elon Musk, great gift was he figured out a way for the masses to pay for their eBay. That’s really what he’s accomplished. Right. And then he made a great car company and he made that, he made the information about how to produce batteries and stuff like that. He democratized that, you know, it’s an open system information.

That’s what he believes in. Now. You can also see like the downside of his Uranus because Nobody’s going to Mars anytime soon, you know, and all these resources are being wasted on what basically is a heaven fantasy being created through technology. You know, we’re going to create Mars. We’re going to create an atmosphere there, but you know what, this planet’s pretty amazing and you could, you could turn all those resources towards planting trees and, and, and all that money that he’s spending on his, on his Mars, heaven fantasy [01:10:00] into improving life on earth.

You know, and, and what’s wrong with the trouble with Uranus is it never knows when to stop technologizing the future. And a lot, a lot of the people I work with, because tech is really Iranian, they’re really Uranian people. You know, that’s, who’s interested in technology is Uranian people. And so what their interest is, is they want to be hooked up to the motherboard, you know, cause they, they’re worried that other tech people are hooked up to the motherboard and they’re not.

I see, you know, and, and so the thing about the tech people is, and he, I consider him a tech person and also his notion that reality is a simulation. You know, you’ve heard him talk about that. A lot of tech people think that reality is a computer simulation. All tech is a simulation of consciousness. It’s a tech knock.

It’s a technologization of consciousness, [01:11:00] and that’s where the money is. The money is, is, Oh, if we can all show our pictures to each other. We can make billions, you know, if we can all show our lives to each other, we can make billions. If we can make a way that people can communicate with each other without other people being able to listen, we can make billions.

But these are all capacities of consciousness and tech. People are always trying to map and monetize consciousness so that he has it. Ask backwards, like reality is not a simulation. Tech is a simulation of reality. You know, and, and so the problem that people who are overly Iranian is that they’re always looking for more progressive ways to exist.

Without valuing what’s happening in the moment, you know, Steve Jobs, when he got cancer, he used all these alternative forms of treatment like juicing and fasting when maybe just surgery would have been the [01:12:00] thing to do. That’s that’s the technology that existed at the moment that may have been the most helpful, right?

And Elon Musk, he’s got all these resources and he’s investing them in a technological heaven fantasy. Which is where we’re going to recreate life on earth in a place that’s hostile to life, you know? And, and so, but he’s so overtaken by Uranus, like that’s so primary, his son is square Uranus. So all he’s experiencing all the time is democratization of information, of progress and power.

So he is interested in democratizing, like he doesn’t think Putin or Trump or Biden or any of those people should have power. He thinks power should be something that is spread out and democratized. And he’ll work towards that, even if it means [01:13:00] destabilizing systems that work, like American democracy.

Giancarlo (2): Yeah. 

Robert: And he’s not thinking, Uranus is doing it to him. It’s going through him. You know what I mean? And when, when you have these trans personal planets aspecting big parts of you, they work through you, you know, they use you as a tool. And so his, his mantra, like if he was a client of mine, my mantra would be like, you know, don’t throw out the baby with the bathwater, you know, American democracy, it’s worked pretty well, you know, don’t destabilize it because you think that there’s some better, purer form where there’s a democracy between Russia.

And, you know, and those kind of totalitarian systems in China and America, and you can equivocate them because everything is in this democratized reality. It’s not. There’s value in things and there, there’s, there’s value in history. And I [01:14:00] think that, that when you’re Uranian like that, you’re just always looking toward the revolution.

You’re it’s a very, very uncomfortable thing to live with. Yeah. You know, he’d have a very uncomfortable zap going through him all the time. That’s trying to transform his understanding of things and his environment and the world. And it can get, you know, like. It might’ve been okay just to have this great payment company, this great car company, and then think like, what good can I do in this world?

You know, cause that’s the one we have, 

Giancarlo (2): you know, 

Robert: I think that, I think that, you know, his struggles are largely Uranian struggles. 

Giancarlo: Yeah. But so maybe, maybe what do you think? Is there anything that really strikes you? Otherwise we can maybe look at Taylor Swift. 

Robert: Oh, yeah. Yeah. And then I’ll also show you that also when you see it’s reemphasized is if you look in his 11th house, you know, which is one, it’s two up from the horizon on the [01:15:00] left.

Yeah. It’s ruled by Aquarius. And Uranus, he’s got Saturn there. So he’s compelled again, Uranus Uranus, Aquarius. He’s just in this, he’s in this Uranian modality that he can’t escape and it can be quite destructive. You know, it can be, it can be destructive and it, because it’s always looking to change things and it’s never happy with the status quo.

So I think that’s a big part of who he is and the way he suffers and motivates a lot of his behavior. 

Giancarlo: But so, you know, another, another aspect that interests me about, you know, this, this, this technology of, of, of, you know stars chart is, you know, as you know Mango TV were interested in in healing and, and self connection and and regeneration and, you know, personal growth.

So. Right. You know, [01:16:00] what would, what, what advice would you give? I mean, you, you, you, you, you, you said it already. The advice I give him, the advice I give him is 

Robert: that To stop 

Giancarlo: suffering, to stop suffering. Yeah, 

Robert: to stop, to end his suffering. Well, first of all, his emotional state is so primitive. But what do you mean, what do you mean by primitive?

Well, cancer, cancer, like the water signs, their emotional experience is so primitive. It’s like pre verbal. But like, like, like, like, like rough. Well, no, if I’m saying primitive, no, I would say it’s like, it’s like life has emerged out of the primordial soup, right? Yes. On earth. Yes. But your, his emotional life is still in the primordial soup.

It’s not intellectual. It’s so, that’s why he’s so sad when he’s not in love because he’s so connected to the feminine. In a [01:17:00] way, and Uranus further alienates him from it in his thinking, in his in his abstracting and his mentating, he is causing his suffering. And I would say you have to have a practice, whether it was therapy or meditation or yoga or like couples therapy, where you can tend to your vulnerability every day, or it’s going to cause you enormous problems.

And you’re never going to figure it out with your mental work. You know, you’re never going to figure out your happiness through your mentation. You’re going to need to have this sense of feeling loved and cared for and known and being vulnerable and being sort of embraced in that space, or you’re just going to suffer from the moment, from your, from the moment you were born until the moment you die, no matter what you achieve.

Giancarlo: So you would recommend like somatic psychotherapy 

Robert: or something? Somatic psychotherapy, yoga, meditation, you know, he’s trying [01:18:00] to tend to his emotional stuff with drugs. Yeah. You know, with ketamine and with ecstasy and stuff like that, that’s just him trying to make himself feel better. 

Giancarlo (2): Yeah. And I would 

Robert: say you actually have to make yourself feel better.

Giancarlo (2): Yeah. 

Giancarlo: Okay. Okay. Great. Should we go? Should we go to Taylor Swift? 

Robert: Yeah, sure. Let’s go to Taylor Swift. 

Giancarlo: It’s so much fun. Okay. It is 

Robert: fun. Everybody is so unique. 

Giancarlo: Look at the difference. It’s like Elon Musk has. Almost activity, almost in every house. 

Robert: Yeah, he’s really spread out. 

Giancarlo: And Terrorstrift is like mostly on second and, and eighth.

Ninety. Ninety percent of the activity. 

Robert: Yeah, it’s, it’s, it, you know, that’s how, that’s, what’s so interesting about astrology is everybody’s charts different, you know, like, so she’s got, okay. So again, really interesting. Okay. So with Taylor Swift, what you can see is she has Scorpio rising. So if [01:19:00] you look at her, if you look at the Western horizon, it’s at 26 degrees of Scorpio.

Yeah, right in house on the first house on the first house. Yeah, and then like him She also had and it’s quite unusual for people to have planets rising I’d say that, you know, probably like every 20 charts has a planet rising in it But now we’ve got two very dynamic people in the world and they both have planets rising.

Isn’t that interesting? 

Giancarlo: But so what’s her star sign? 

Robert: Her son’s sign is Sagittarius. Sagittarius like me. Her son’s in Sagittarius but she has Scorpio rising and then you can see Mars rising 

Giancarlo: is the 

Robert: ascendant and you can see right below that she’s got Mars rising in Scorpio Mars is right there like her, her sentence 2534 and her Mars is at 26.

See [01:20:00] that? Yeah. Okay. So again, there’s somebody who’s got a planet rising, which is very unusual in my experience. Like I could look at, I could do 20 astrology readings without somebody having a planet rising. But now we have two people who are very prominent in the culture and they both have it well, so, 

Giancarlo: so how do, how do you interpret that?

Robert: When people have planets rising, there’s aspects of their consciousness that are beyond their control that are always trying to be expressed. Like they’re not like, you know, one of the funniest things I ever did with astrology was once I realized I had astrology software, it was about. It would have been 33 years ago, 32 years ago.

And it was when astrology software came out. And so I figured out my chart. And then the first chart I looked at, cause I knew the birth information was of my mother and I went, Oh, she’s not doing anything to me. That’s just what she’s like, [01:21:00] and that’s really one of the great things about astrology is you get to objectively look at what people are like, because usually like, you’re like, Oh, I like this about this person.

I don’t like this about this person. Why are they like this? Why aren’t they like this? And you realize this is what they’re like, this is what they’re doing. They’re not doing it on purpose. 

Giancarlo: Yeah. And then you don’t take it personally. 

Robert: Yeah. They’re not doing it to annoy you. They’re just doing it because that’s what they’re doing.

Like that’s how they’re built. Right. And so when you see people and they have planets rising, they have planet, those planets, those aspects of consciousness are just manifesting through them with No direction on their part and no volition. It’s like their unconscious is saying, you got to do this and you don’t have a choice.

And them having awareness of it is a little bit like an eyeball trying to see itself, you know, they can’t. And so this thing just happened. So she’s got Mars rising. So she’s just going to have an enormous amount of energy and [01:22:00] motivation. That’s for sure. For sure. Like, like she, like when she wakes, she hits the floor running and when she wakes up, I’m sure.

And she’s got stuff to do and she’s got energy to express and you know, she can do a tour and she doesn’t get tired. She’s just got so much energy, you know, and like her, her, what, what was the word that Freud and Young would use? About you know, it’s like I’m trying to think it’s missing, but her, her vitality is just, just, it’s coursing through her all the time.

And what she’s aware of all the time is her vitality. And I have to do something with it, you know? So she’s got like, so she puts on a three hour show. And then, you know, and sings and dances and walks all over. And she’s got so much energy because she’s got this Mars energy that it just wants to express itself.

It wants to be powerful. It wants to assert itself. It wants to express like, it’s like a V8 500 engine, you know, is her, that’s what she [01:23:00] experiences about herself first is I got a lot of energy and then she’s got Scorpio rising. So she’s also sensitive. You know, she’s sensitive and she’s vulnerable and the way she deal with that vulnerability is by doing stuff.

By doing stuff by presenting herself, you know, and that would make her feel more safe, but she’s got a very powerful Mars right there to protect her. So her doing stuff makes her feel safe, you know, like, like I’m impacting my environment. So my environment can’t do anything to me, you know, when she gets out of a car in the village, you know, to go to a restaurant, she knows there’s going to be a hundred paparazzi there.

She’s dressed herself in a certain way. And she’s going to move in a certain way that, that, that commands the environment. So when you see her walk, I’ve seen this a million times. When she performs, she walks like a runway model one foot in front of the next foot and then around in front of the first foot and in the [01:24:00] front of the first foot because she thinks that makes her seem powerful.

Giancarlo (2): She doesn’t 

Robert: walk like a normal person. And trust me, she walked like that in a mirror, figuring out how to do it. Right? Like, like you want her hips. And it’s like, she’s been to enough fashion shows that she sees the way the supermodels walk is one foot. Then in front of the other foot, she doesn’t walk like you or I walk, which is right foot, left foot, right.

That doesn’t, that’s not as commanding. Right. That’s not as commanding. So, so when you have Mars rising, what you’re concerned about is command. So you’d have self-consciousness about every way that you assert yourself, and there’d be a lot of thought that goes into it, but there’d also be a lot of power behind it.

You know, having Mars rising, it makes her Scorpio rising. Have like a Aries. Like overlay. So she’s just going to assert herself in every environment that she’s in. She’s going to assert that’s [01:25:00] how she’s going to be comfortable. Here I am. And you can’t judge me if I can assert myself, how I want to assert myself, you know, and she’ll just get more and more and more like that as she gets older.

And one of the things you see with astrology is you see that. People grow into their charts. They become more like it. It’s like DNA. It’s like, it’s like looking at an acorn that becomes an Oak, you know? So she’s just going to become more and more and more like that. You know, and, and so, so she thinks before I go out, what color lipstick am I going to wear, you know, what shoes am I going to wear and I’m going to walk with my foot in front of my foot in front of my foot in front of my foot because that, that shows feminine power because that’s what the culture, that’s what the culture sees with runway model, watch her walk next time you see her walk.

Yes, yes, yes, 

Giancarlo: yes, totally. But so. Can you figure it out? What is her relationship with love and romance? Is this something you can read from the chart? 

Robert: [01:26:00] Well, here’s something really interesting about her. Okay. So she also, she also she has a moon. Okay. So the real influences I see in her chart are, she’s got that big Mars rising, and then she’s got all these planets and Capricorn in the second house.

And then her moon is in cancer. If you see, if you see her moon, it’s in cancer, which we just spoke about with Elon 

Giancarlo (2): Musk 

Robert: and her Jupiter is conjunct her moon and Jupiter rules Sagittarius and she’s a Sagittarius. So her moon is in cancer and it’s conjunct Jupiter in, in, in Sagittarius in cancer. Anyway, so.

You know, for her, you know, a moon conjunct Jupiter, first of all, a moon in cancer, it’s somebody who’s really connected to their mom. Elon Musk. Like, like they’re just [01:27:00] your moon and cancer. The moon is ruled by cancer, you know, and it’s so sensitive. So when you have a moon in cancer, it’s like a sun and Leo, or like a Mars and Aries it’s in the sign that is its natural ruler.

So you can be really sure she’s really sensitive. like besides the runway walk and everything like that, she’s a very, very, very sensitive person. And it’s funny, like, this is fun for me. Cause I have never given Taylor Swift a moment’s thought in this way before, but looking at her moon in the eighth house and in the eighth house, it’s ruled by Scorpio and Scorpio.

Also like cancer is a water sign. Scorpio is different. So Pisces is a water sign and it’s just permeable and sensitive. Cancer is a water sign and it’s sensitive and vulnerable and does things in a non [01:28:00] direct way. Scorpio is sensitive and vulnerable, but it just doesn’t trust anybody because it doesn’t feel safe.

So it’s always looking at people’s motivations. And it’s always trying to identify danger before something happens. Right. So her moon being in cancer in the eighth house is going to talk to an extraordinary sensitivity and vulnerability. Right. I would bet she cries a lot,

you know, I’d say that the people who really know her, you know, like boyfriends and stuff like that. I mean, that’s something that you’d get exposed to because she’d have a real vulnerability to her. Like that is primary in her emotional system and probably motivates a lot of her creativity. But you know, what’s interesting is, okay, so she’s a Sagittarius.

By nature. I mean, that’s her son. Okay. Sagittarius more than any other [01:29:00] sign is the natural performer of the, of the, of the Zodiac Sagittarius is they want to communicate something, but they want to communicate it in the coolest way. Right. And, and they want to communicate something that they understand.

So if you look at Sagittarius is so Jim Morrison was a Sagittarius. Okay. And Jimi Hendrix was a Sagittarius too. So they love to perform. They love to be a character. They love to wear cool pants and cool shirts and, you know, leather pants and, and, and, and conch belts. And, you know, she loves her outfits and they got there, you know, she loves like things that are shiny.

You see in her presentation, you know, things are glittery. You know, she thinks, how does this look, how is this going to be perceived? And ultimately there is this. Philosophy, you know, there is this philosophy that Sagittarius is like you, they want to communicate this [01:30:00] philosophy, you know, and they want to communicate it in a cool way and they want it to be the best it can be.

Now, one thing that’s really interesting about Sagittarius people is that through their fathers, and I spoke to the, I spoke to this about you, I spoke to you about this. When I looked at your chart, their fathers don’t have the philosophy that they can use for their life. It’s lacking and that’s like, I have a son who’s a Sagittarius who’s like, dude, you’re, you’re just a lost hippie.

I can’t even talk to you.

He’s like a total secular materialist, you know, like he’s like, he’s like, you know what I mean? And reaction, reaction to you. And I think, I think, well, I can think of it more like, you know, that’s the purpose of his life. That’s why he got me as his dad. You know, if he’d gotten some wall street guys, his dad, he wouldn’t know how to define himself.

He’d just be like, Oh yeah, like there wouldn’t be as much charge. And he’s just like, you’re like a hippie. You don’t, don’t talk to me about [01:31:00] this stuff. You know, it’s embarrassing. Right. And so, so I know that that’s his reaction formation. That’s his Sagittarian reaction formation. You know, is that like, I have to look at my dad and think he doesn’t understand anything so I can work on what I understand.

Giancarlo: But so you really think that most Sagittarius people living their life in contrast or contradiction. 

Robert: You know, I’ll tell, I’ll tell you this funny thing, you know, like my son who’s very academic and very achievement oriented. He said to me once, he said, everything I accomplish, I accomplish despite you.

Cause he kind of sees me as like this laid back, abstract person. And I said to him, I said, that’s just what you tell yourself so that you can become you. You know, and, and he would need to rub up against Sagittarius people need to rub up against something that is somewhat dissatisfying to them. It’s like the grain of sand that makes the [01:32:00] pearl in the oyster, right?

So, so like another good one is you know, Jim Morrison’s a Sagittarius and his father was a Navy Rear Admiral. Oh, wow. , you know, and and he was raised, yeah, he was, his father actually was the commanding officer in the south when the Gulf of Kin incident happened in the Vietnam War, which is basically what ignited the Vietnam War.

His father was the commanding officer of, of, of, of the region in Vietnam. Right. And so he just took this whole like, and he had military people in his background for generations, and his father had gone to the Naval Academy. And, you know, a rear admiral is like a general, you know, in the Navy and he just went not doing that and was reading Nietzsche and, you know, Jack Kerouac and, you know, created this whole bohemian adverse reaction to that, you know, and that’s a Sagittarian mind.

You know, that’s saying [01:33:00] his fate was emphasized by being in such an extreme environment that he’d have to have an extreme reaction to it. 

Giancarlo (2): You know, and 

Robert: you know, it’s funny cause my son talks about it because like Jim Morrison, my Sagittarius son loves Nietzsche. And I always point out to him that Jim Morrison loved Nietzsche.

And he, and he, and he said, well, it didn’t really work for him very well. And I said, well, you know, had he gone to the Naval Academy, like his father would have wanted him to, he would have died in the Vietnam war anyway. You know what I mean? And he probably knew that about himself, you know, like, so his early death was probably as much a result of his faded being that environment, being that military environment and reacting to it as his fame.

As being one of the first people of a generation, it was the first time young people went, you know what, we’re not cannon fodder. We have our own culture, you know, like we’re like youth isn’t to be destroyed for the whims of old [01:34:00] people, youth is to be experienced and enjoyed. And then he was the avatar of that.

And he used all the same skills that ultimately. Like his father and his position of leadership used to command the Pacific fleet. He used that to command a youth culture. So you are like your father in a way. And my son is like me in many ways, but he’s saying, no, I’m, I’m going to use it in a totally different way.

And so, so Ellis would have that as well. 

Giancarlo: Yeah, I mean, you know, what I’m, what I’m thinking, think, you know, listening to you is that you astrologers are really a different type of, of tribe because it’s like you have, you decode reality in a, in a different way. I mean, To what extent you can have you know, when you make new friends, I mean, you have a girlfriend, right?

You are but so for example, when how did you, I’ve had a 

Robert: few 

Giancarlo: girlfriends and a 

Robert: wife. 

Giancarlo: I’ve had 

Robert: a lot 

Giancarlo: of 

Robert: [01:35:00] relationships. I want, 

Giancarlo: I want to know how reading. people you want to spend time with, friends, friends and lovers. And, you know, do you, do you always ask them their, you know, time and date of time and date of birth?

Robert: Do I need to have that information to feel 

Giancarlo: comfortable? Do you want it? Do you use it? Or you feel that if you know too much, if, you know, if you start doing everybody that you meet charts, you live almost in a parallel reality or not. 

Robert: Not really. You know, here’s the thing that, you know, okay, so you can see in people’s astrology charts, there’s another thing in astrology called sinistry.

Where, and you’d have this with your wife. I can show it to you. You’d have it with your kids is if people are significant to people, there are places where their charts are going to intercept my degree. It’s, it’s like a key fitting into a lock and young’s first studies on this were like [01:36:00] in marriages.

And he often found that there was a synchronicity between. The man’s son being in the same sign as the woman’s moon, that was, but you know, that was of its time, but you can see, so I can look at somebody’s chart and I can go, Oh, are there places that we intersect? Because if there are, we’re going to be engaged.

Like we’re designed to be engaged. And if there aren’t, I know, but she’s gonna, she’s gonna freak out who is. 

Giancarlo: Whatever woman you tell him, like, you know, 

Robert: show me the, the, you know, I have a very subtle way of finding it out, but, but like, I can see, I can see if people are just passing through my life or if they’re, or, or if there’s significant.

Engagement, you know, you can see that and you can also see the pressures that you put on each other through your, through your makeup, you know, and you can also see maybe what the resolution is so [01:37:00] that you both become better. So, yeah, I am interested in that. And it also allows you to do that thing, Sean, Carla, that I talked about with my mother, where I get to go, Oh, they’re not doing it to me.

That’s just what they’re like, but 

Giancarlo: can you, can you, as, as, as a CEO, can you use this technology to build the, the, the hundred 

Robert: percent, like, you know, it’s like, it’s like what Stan Groff said, you know, and, and he said it in a class I was in 30 years ago with Rick Tarnas and he said it in his documentary, he goes, I would never work with somebody with psychedelics once I realized it.

What astrology was, I would never work with them without looking at their chart first because, because it shows the unique structure of their consciousness. But I know that working with people or engaging with people that they’re going to manifest. The, the structure of their consciousness and their engagement with me.

And I can see what that [01:38:00] is and I can’t control it and I can’t predict it. I can’t predict the outcome, but I can see the places where we’re kind of stuck into each other, you know, and the places where we may have conflict and the places where there’s opportunity for transformation. You know, and and I think that I think that that’s pretty fascinating and it also shows that there’s, you know, you know, I hear about human design, you know, like, like, that’s a thing, human design and whenever I meet one of those people, they always say astrology is part of human design.

But then none of them really know anything about astrology.

Because it’s like, it’s like with 5meo DMT, James Oroch once said to me, he said, he said, don’t do, don’t do don’t do frog venom, do synthetic 5meo. And I’m like, why? And he’s like, because with synthetic 5meo, you know how much 5meo is in there. You know, and with frog venom, you can [01:39:00] never know. And there’s all these other alkaloids in it.

And what do you want infinity with sprinkles on it?

And so the thing about astrology is people are going to be as their charts are. And I have friends who I’ve never seen their astrology charts. You know, I have friends who I’ve never seen their astrology charts and we’re still great friends. Nice. But, but I know that if I do see, like I don’t have to see their astrology chart to be friends with them.

But if I do see their astrology charts, it’s like looking under the hood a little bit. 

Giancarlo (2): Yeah. 

Robert: Now it’s like going, wow, there’s this cool, there’s this cool Maserati. I like a Maserati, but let’s see what the engine looks like, you know, and let’s see how the engines put together and let’s see like the shape it’s in.

And I think that like astrology offers that opportunity for all of us to acknowledge the uniqueness. Of one another. Yeah. And, and, and, and to marvel at it. So it’s just marvel at it that [01:40:00] that’s really, you know, for me, in, in the, in, in the lifetime of astrology I’ve had, I’ve just been able to marvel at people.

You know, like I can marvel at Elon Musk or Marvel at Taylor Swift or Marvel at you. You know, that, that, that there’s a unique experience that we’re all, we’re all having a unique experience together. 

Giancarlo: Do you have anything else you want to share about Taylor Swift? 

Robert: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I’d love to hold up.

Let me. Okay. So just what’s extraordinary about her chart is her son is also in the first house. Like if you see, if you see that, you know, her son is at 21 degrees Sagittarius, it’s still in the first house. So she’s got Mars and her son in the first house. And the first house is ruled by Mars. So she just like, she just has this Aries like power, which is one she would always assert herself.

And think about it later. Like the, the whole, the whole [01:41:00] credo of just do it. That’s the Aries credo. So she has no fear about what she’s doing. She like, she just, she, she’s just doing it and then everything’s happening around that propulsion. To put herself out into the world, you know, she’s, she has no self consciousness about that at all.

It’s like, you know, sometimes you listen to her isolated vocals and whatever, and you’re like, damn, she doesn’t even really sing that well, but she doesn’t care. That’s what the video screens are for. And the sparkly and the sparkly outfits and the backup singers. You know what I mean? Like, like, Like she’s not concerned about her talent.

She’s not concerned about what her limitations are. She’s just completely out there in front and asking questions later, which is great. And then you see all this Capricorn in her second house, you know? So, like I said, this is before I think off camera, she’s a [01:42:00] Sagittarius and Sagittarius is, can be very interested in adventure.

And they can be caught up in the adventure, whether it’s a mental adventure or travel, like they can just go and go and go and go. And they’re actually right now, like right now, I know you just got back from skiing. You’re probably thinking about what’s my next trip. I don’t want to get stuck here. That’s wonderful.

It’s home in Ibiza is what’s happening next. Right. And there’s, there’s this, there’s this tendency with, with Sagittarius people that it’s like rock hopping to the next adventure. And they’re not even where they are because they’re thinking about where they’re going next. And that can not be productive.

You know, that can be less than productive, but what, what’s amazing about her and Brad Pitt also has this, which is interesting. Is she’s got an enormous amount of Capricorn in her chart. You know, she’s got Uranus in Capricorn. She’s got Mercury in Capricorn. She’s got Neptune in Capricorn and she’s got Saturn in Capricorn.

And so she’s got a [01:43:00] stellium in Capricorn and a stellium is when they have four planets. In the same science, very unusual. And Capricorn is all about hard work. It’s all about whatever needs to happen. I’ll do it. And then I’ll do more and I’m not interested in abstractions. I’m interested in making things real.

I’m interested in how do I make myself 80 feet tall on the video screen? Who’s going to do that for me? You know, that’s what I want. I want myself to be 80 foot tall. There is this great great Rolling Stone article that I’m now recalling in this moment. Do you know who father John Misty is? No, he’s this great singer.

He’s very ironic. He, I’ll, you look him up on, you look him up and he’s into psychedelics and he’s, he’s very handsome and very charismatic and he’s very dry. And he tells this story of, he was on tour in Australia and I [01:44:00] think he was in Melbourne or Sydney. And he was staying in the same hotel as Taylor Swift, who was on tour.

And, you know, he was having like 500 people at his show, you know, and she was playing in a, in a, in a football stadium, you know, in a, in a, in a Australian football stadium and his crew invited him. To come to the show. And he thought, you know, this’ll be great. And the only thing that’ll make this better is if I drop some acid,

ironic like that. And he tells the story in Rolling Stone and he said, he said, so he was on acid and there was. There was Taylor Swift singing 80 feet tall and telling everybody that they didn’t have to be anybody but themselves. And he felt like it was the grand leader

actually asserting that and telling them that they didn’t have to be like anybody else they needed to serve her. And he [01:45:00] said, he said at a certain point, he goes, he said he went outside into the kind of foyer away from the concert. And then he just had this feeling like I’m really missing out. I got to get back in there and see what’s happening.

So I think that, you know, she has this Capra. She has this huge, huge work drive. Well, you know, that’s what Capricorn is about. Capricorn is about. I want to become an avatar of something. You know, if you look at all of the Indian mystics, Ramakrishna, Vivekananda. Yogananda, they’re all Capricorns, Martin Luther King’s a Capricorn.

They’re about taking abstract things and making them real in 3D, you know, and having enormous drive and attention to detail and focus and determination and discipline. And when you see somebody who’s got that much Capricorn, they are just unstoppable because ultimately what they’re interested in is authority.

Capricorn rules Saturn in the 10th house, and it’s [01:46:00] really interested in authority. You know, it’s really interested in power and genuine, not abstract. So like if Taylor Swift tells all her like 80 million followers in the United States. Or however many there are to vote for Joe Biden, he’s going to be president.

She’s got way more power than Trump has, you know? And it’s so like, that’s what she’s interested. She really interested in efficiency and power and determination and really determination determined to remake the world. To her vision. You know, she, she’s really, really compelled to do that. Amazing to make the efforts to do that and never, and to tirelessly do that, you know, so that’s what really interesting about her chart, you know, and, you know, you could, you could bring up one of your kids’ charts and we could talk about that.

Or your friend, you know, and everybody has these, you know, pri, everybody has the [01:47:00] primary directive in their astrology chart that they’re trying to carry out, even if they don’t know that they are. 

Giancarlo: Amazing, amazing. Rob, you know, I, I, I’d love to go on forever, but we’re almost, you know, two hours mark, and I don’t, I’d, I’d love this four episode not to be too long.

Of course. In a, in a, in a spirit of a, of a, of a cliff hunger sort of thing. Can you, can you quickly describe 

Robert: episode two? Episode two is gonna be about that, the consciousness that forms everything for dreams, you, it dreams you in a certain way. to achieve and transform certain things in itself. And you are part of that process as is everybody else.

And astrology talks about the way that you are part of that process. 

Giancarlo: Do you see how difficult it is to grasp this concept, right? When you say consciousness dreams of you, 

Robert: you’re the one who’s always talking about cosmic consciousness. I know. I like, 

Giancarlo: I like to explore it because it’s [01:48:00] 

Robert: You know, you can say that, you can say that there’s a creative force in the universe and it is invested in you.

It knows about you, it’s invested in you and it wants things for you. And that’s really what episode two is about. 

Giancarlo: It’s some sort of destiny. 

Robert: Yes. There is fate in astrology and part of fate is consciousness. You know, Jung said where I don’t, what I don’t understand, I don’t know the exact quote, but it’s something like.

What I don’t comprehend of the unconscious I experienced is fate and that you need to know that in your unconscious and your before there’s your ego, there’s this process going on in you that is seeking transformation. And if you don’t partner with it. you’re going to meet it as your fate. Nice. And if you partner with it and say like, I’m aware of these dynamics and I want to participate in them and I want to be a better version of them and I [01:49:00] want to be conscious of them, then you can have a say in it.

Nice. 

Giancarlo: Thank you so much. Yeah, 

Robert: my pleasure. That 

Giancarlo: was 

Robert: so fun. 

Giancarlo: Robert Mitchell, ladies and gentlemen. Okay, great. So looking forward for episode two. Thank you. Thank you for your time and we’ll, we’ll, we’ll animate all this and we’ll see how it comes out. 

Robert: Fantastic. 

Giancarlo: Take care, Robert. Thank you for coming. 

Robert: Oh, my pleasure.

Great to see you Giancarlo. See you soon. Ciao, [01:50:00] ciao.