0: Sarah Tilley on Finding Peace, Consciousness & Psychedelic-Assisted Therapy for Relationships

Website
Instagram
LinkedIn

Esther Perel
Betty Martin
Burlington Danes
Imperial
Experiment – Imperial
Windrush
Buddhist Meditation & Chanting
Michael Pollan – ‘Orchestra Conductor’
Shiatsu

Giancarlo: [00:00:00] Hello. Hi. Welcome to this new episode of the Mango TV podcast. Today I am very excited to have a fantastic guest, Sarah Tille. Sarah, do you pronounce it like that? Tille?

Sarah: Yes.

Giancarlo: Yes. Sarah Tille is a healthcare entrepreneur, holistic therapist, psychedelic guide, and founder of Dutch legal based psychedelic wellness company, beautiful space.

She’s the creator of the beautiful space method of relational therapy, a new model of psychedelic assisted therapy for couples and individuals. [00:01:00] Addressing childhood trauma and loss of desire in romantic relationship, a mother healer, educator, and musician. She has been working with plant medicine and alter state for over 20 years.

Originally trained in homeopathy and flower essences, hypnosis and regression. Most recently studying with Esther Perel, an advocate for healthcare, equality and safe psychedelics. Sarah created psychedelic Mindfulness, a Preparation Pro, pro, a preparation protocol. Beautiful space is in collaboration with Imperia College of London.

On the first study of Sabine. Couples and relationship wellbeing with psychological support. Amazing. There is a lot there.

And yeah, I’m,

Giancarlo: I’m, I’m salivating, you know, our, our listener know that all, you know, the topic of of psychedelic expanded state and sexuality is, um, probably the most important topic of this, of this podcast.

Um, you know, as, as, as I usually say, we like to keep [00:02:00] it, um, biographical, you know, ultimately we’re very interested. Um, we believe that global transformation come from personal transformation. So we’d love to know about your personal transformation. So let’s start really from the beginning. So where did you grow up?

What kind of environment did you have at home? And let’s start from here. From there, if you don’t mind.

Sarah: Yeah. Thank you. Uh, I was born in the sixties. I was fostered, uh, in. At birth and raised by a, a family. Um, I was adopted with my twin sister and we were adopted at six months. So six months I was in foster care and, uh, raised by, you know, I’m very, very grateful to my mother and father.

Um, they were [00:03:00] wartime evacuees, um, so they had a lot of their own issues. It was very, very challenging, uh, growing up as a child. Um, I would, I do, uh, I score nine on the adverse childhood experience scoring, and it has been my life’s work to just create my own healing and the environment around me in order to.

For myself, and it’s been really beautiful along the way.

Giancarlo: And, and where, where was that? In England?

Sarah: Yeah, this was in England in, um, Middlesex. Uh, I was, uh, first adopted into Middlesex, then we moved to Buckingham. She, so outskirts of London in the green area. I was always surrounded by nature. And in nature.

I found my home.

Giancarlo: I didn’t know that you called them fo You had foster home in England as well? I [00:04:00] thought it was an American, uh,

Sarah: yeah. Yeah. In, in southeast London, yeah. Oh, wow.

Giancarlo: And so your parents were from Serbia?

Sarah: No, my parents, my, uh. Birth father is Chinese, Malaysian. My birth mother is Scottish, and my adopted parents were English in in suburbia.

Giancarlo: I see, I see. But so, so which war were you talking about? That they were No, no war. I didn’t, I

Sarah: didn’t mention war. Oh, sorry, sorry.

Giancarlo: You know, ah, yes.

Sarah: My parents were raised in wartime in the second World War I I see. So they were both evacuees. Ah, they were very much in this avoidance detachment. I see. It was a lot of trauma and terror in my home that I grew up with.

It was, uh, it was, it was essentially a war zone that I was raised in.

Giancarlo: Wow.

Sarah: And music was a solace.

Giancarlo: Nice. But, so, Sarah, sorry to ask. Um, do you mind explaining this, um, rating you just mentioned, uh, you, you [00:05:00] said you, you, you rated nine on the scale. Can, can you elaborate a little bit on the

Sarah: Yes. The. Um, adverse childhood experiences.

It’s a scoring system, which, uh, many people use, uh, to determine childhood trauma. It’s widely talked about. Uh, the only thing I didn’t have on there was, uh, one of, uh, a family member who’d been to prison, but physical violence, sexual violence, uh, I can’t actually recall right now. It was, it was very validating when I did the scoring for myself because yes, it, it kind of validates the journey that I’ve chosen for my life.

I’m a very happy person and it’s, uh, it’s, I didn’t used to be, I, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Giancarlo: But so it’s, you know, what comes to mind is that it seems from this. Um, from the scoring that, you know, the, the harder, the more, the [00:06:00] more intense are the event, the highest is the score. But don’t you think that sometimes, you know what they call the little t trauma, the development trauma might not have nothing to do with this very violent episode, but can be just neglect and sometimes this developing trauma, they might be even more pernicious because it’s easier for the mind to suppress.

So people with smaller trauma might go through life and I mean, I don’t want to compare, of course, if you have food on the table.

Sarah: Don’t think there is a comparison here. You know, I call them micro abrasions. You know, the parents said one thing and you it and believed it because you trust your parents.

You know these things about everything’s based in safety and uh, and trust and you know, tiny little micro abrasions that, you know, a teacher said or a family member, you [00:07:00] know, it builds a layer upon layer and that is what the psyche is made of.

Giancarlo: Yeah. Micro abrasion. That’s something that I’m gonna use.

Thank you. Um, okay, great. So you grew up in foster care. Your foster parents were, uh, caring and, um, you know, they did their best to, but, but, uh, how, where did you go to school? How was, um, where were you aware about your. You, you know, your, um, disconnection from self or, or, or, you know, traumatic childhood. How did it manifest?

Sarah: Yeah, so, uh, just to clarify, I was, uh, I grew up with my adopted parents and my twin sister and my older sister. So, you know, we grew up as a family of five in, um, the green belt of the uk. You know, there were fields and horses and, you know, a stream that we played with. There was freedom in the sixties to ride a bicycle around the street.

Yet at the same time, my, both my [00:08:00] parents were traumatized themselves, so there was a level of unsafe and a shouting.

Um, very early on in music in primary level, I learned to play the violin at nine. And so my parents sent me to a specialist music school in the middle of London with my twin sister from the age of 11. And from then I was educated in music. So I, uh, was in music programs at the weekends and the school holidays.

And it’s something that’s very big in London. It’s called the Ilea in, uh, in the London Educational Authority that provided music education in those days. So, uh, I went to.

Stage, stage, you know, in the seventies and eighties there [00:09:00] was a lot, also a lot of racism. So I experienced racism in school. Um, so I went to school in Acton, actually in Burlington Danes, which is a part. And I was born in Hammersmith Hospital, so all of this is part of the Imperial College campus. And then I moved at, uh, 1516 to, uh, a school called Pimlico School, which is in, in London, which has an, um, an even more specialist music department where I was, uh, you know, really trained to move into becoming a musician.

So there was a decision at.

And then I went left secondary school to become a straight out into the music industry.

Giancarlo: Forgive the question. I know you’re not a neuroscientist, but did you, did you ever explore what is the soothing effect on the psyche of music?

Sarah: Yeah, absolutely. Your brain [00:10:00] or music is a fantastic new book on neuroscience and music.

There are many of us who exist now in the music industry and many of my colleagues are, you know, top players in the, in the world. And they, you know, we say music saved us. Many of us were being raised by parents who had been migrants, um, where they were wartime children themselves, where there was a lot of, you know, uh, Windrush, you know, parents had come over on that.

And I was, you know, part of the music system raised amongst those children. And music was this cohesive place. Now, when I play my violin, my brain, almost flat lines.

Giancarlo: Mm, that’s what it is. It’s out of your mind. Yeah.

Sarah: Even the white noise stops and, you know, if you can imagine practicing, uh, your instrument violin for eight hours a day, solid, you know, training.[00:11:00]

And I was trained to do that. You know, that this was this deep state of meditation that I existed.

Giancarlo: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Probably, I, I just would like to speculate. If they put you into a FMRI machine during the state, they probably would see a reduction of the, the default mode network that, that our friends at Imperial College have been.

Yeah. Recording with Sabine with the tryptamine, right?

Sarah: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah,

Giancarlo: yeah. Yeah. Okay, great. So, thank God for music. And when, when was your first, um, exploration with psychedelic medicines?

Sarah: Well, you know, previously as a child, uh, I was, um, I, I discovered this. Be able to dream. And it was really when I was about eight, I had started having prophetic dreams and uh, I would, um, kind of follow the prophecy in these dreams.

There was particular incidences and I realized that there was a [00:12:00] kind of harnessing of the mind. I’m very curious person, so there was a harnessing of the mind. And so I learned lucid dreams. I discovered all about this, read it philosophy and Buddhism from a very early age and trained myself in dream work and also of.

A very nervous performer. You know, with performance anxiety. Because of my childhood background, many of us had performance anxiety and we had to overcome it. We were playing on the biggest stages in London and uh, we had to do mind training. And it was through this training of the minds that I knew that there were other, uh, abilities and I didn’t take it personally.

You know, I see that we’re all capable of this. So I would say my first psychedelic experiences were very early, was the dream world and a very much active in the dream world. And it was, um, [00:13:00] why psychedelics?

17, when I saw what was happening with psychedelics after I’d been working in plant medicine, I thought, I need people to know that you don’t need to take a psychedelic compound in order to have a psychedelic experience. So that’s how I entered into psychedelic medicine.

Giancarlo: Yeah. But so would you, would you consider the, the, you know, like trans state that playing the violin will take you in the dream state?

Comparable.

Sarah: And also, you know, Buddhism, meditation, chanting, um, also I would say yoga practice is this state where we step out of the way. And, uh, just as you said, you know, the default mode network is, you know, there’s a, a, a mechanism that works there that all habitual thinking and the personality drops away.

Yes, absolutely. [00:14:00] There’s a correlation between all of it.

Giancarlo: Yes. Yes. Michael Poland. Calls the, the full mode network, the director of the orchestra of the brain. And, and when the full mode network is subdued by the tryptamines, that reduce the blood supply is like the director fall asleep. So now the, now every member of the orchestra is free.

And I, I, I explained it to my son when he was 10, and when I said, did you understand? And he look at me and he says, so it means that every part of the brain is like in pillow fight. Like

Sarah: it has to be an orchestra full of trained musicians, because if one person goes out of sync, everyone will follow in.

Giancarlo: Yes, but that’s the point, right? Is that what, what make the sink. It’s your egoic armor. That might sounds well, but might, but maybe it’s [00:15:00] not who you really are. Right. But I’m curious, but, so at some stage you might have tried some of this, you know, traditional psychedelic because you know, now you are. You know, it’s a big part of your life now.

How, how did, how did the love affair with SAB started?

Sarah: I came very late to psychedelic compounds, and I should say, you know, there are definite moments in my timeline that I realized what was happening and where, who I was and what was. Um, one was in childhood when I, uh, uh, I first went into therapy at 15 and I understood that, uh, and it was when I first started to cry and, uh, I actually was in the music system.

I was put into Alexander Technique and it was this.

And, [00:16:00] uh, I worked with a therapist there, so Mind Body Connection. That was at 15. And then again, you know, there’s been other moments, uh, as coming into motherhood when, uh, and deciding to move from music. I always knew I wanted to move into, uh, medicine. My sister is a doctor. Uh, um, but I didn’t.

I was in this central place that I didn’t know existed. So these were life defining moments for me. And then I went on to study this thing that I didn’t even know what it was, which was homeopathy. So I was continually, uh, observing and to, in subtle, uh, energy vibrational change and, [00:17:00] uh, what we might call the developmental arc of healing.

And I was very aware of that before I, a psychedelic compound. And I was observing and working with people with, um, ayahuasca in homeopathic potency for many, many years, and taking it myself before I came to a psychedelic compound. The first time I took, um, a psychedelic compound was in my mid forties, and it.

I had the most extraordinary experience of manifestation, and this is actually how I came into psychedelics myself, is that I threw out to the universe. Remember I’d been working with, working with manifestation, universal resonance, a child. And so I worked in there and I made a calling, and then through there I was introduced to uh, uh, [00:18:00] psychedelic research.

Um, so I knew that I could work in that space on a psychedelic compound. And coming to psilocybin, you know, I’ve working with couples now, I’ve kind of reduced everything that I do to working with relationships and sex. Because it’s the most fundamental place for us to come into human flourishing if we can address that part of ourselves.

And it’s decided to work with POC because can grow it on the top of ours. It’s as low cost as you can get and as sustainable as we get. And it’s part of this, um, you know, this body of work, which is sustainable healthcare that I’m creating here. So my first psilocybin trip, I was actually in shamanic ceremony and I’d already done training in shamanism as well within, um, my.

And, um, [00:19:00] it was just so extraordinary to, to, and I had a very low dose. It might have been one gram. I was, uh, and I was with amongst a group of friends in ibi, actually. Uh, yeah, I, IBI is so close to my heart and it’s his, uh, in there that I was friends and I could just see the, the mirror images, uh, on the walls of the shadows of, uh, reflection of myself.

I saw a shamanic medicine wheel and I could start to see in a different way, hallucinations with my eyes open, and then also feel the experience of my physical reaction.

So, yeah, I’ve kind of never left psilocybin. People ask me if I use MDMA and I say, it’s not a legal drug, I’d have to buy it off the street. I can’t, [00:20:00] you know, I dunno what’s in that and I know what’s in psilocybin. We can measure it and I’m very, very comfortable working with psilocybin.

Giancarlo: Okay, great. Yes. I’d love to go back more in details about that, but just to fill the gap between, you know, you were 15, you started therapy and, and then did you go, did you continue to study?

Did you go to. University

Sarah: I went to Music Conservatoire. Ah,

Giancarlo: conserv. I see, I see. Yeah.

Sarah: Yeah. So, uh, I had phenomenal, uh, professors and I became a, a, a concert violinist.

Giancarlo: So you were a professional musician for a while? Yeah,

Sarah: for, for, I was performing for about 15 years and I was teaching for.

Uh, I decided at the end of the conserv of conservative wine, I had phenomenal teachers. Uh, you know, what on earth am I doing here? I have no idea why I’m, uh, [00:21:00] a violinist. And I was already playing on tv. I was already playing on radio, uh, on albums and, you know, playing in like the biggest venues in the world, uh, as I was coming outta music college.

And I didn’t know why I was doing all of this. Uh, yet I knew I was a very, very curious person. So, you know, the inspiration came to me is because I wanna travel. So what I did was I took, uh, posts abroad. So I, uh, you know, I’ve lived in Thailand, I’ve lived in Norway, I’ve lived in Spain. I’ve lived in many different countries, taking positions in orchestras and chamber orchestras where, um, you know, I had the most phenomenal profession of getting off at 10 in the morning and playing broms for, or, you know, Tchaikovsky serenades, uh, touring around Europe or, yeah, London Mozart players playing in western shows, playing in the biggest popey.

Giancarlo: [00:22:00] And then when, when did you start? Thinking about becoming, you know, like a a, a guide or a facilitator or a healer,

Sarah: I knew that music was never gonna be enough for me performing. Uh, I was very aware, as you know, I was living in Norway and playing in sym orchestra and, you know, playing to very white audiences, middle class.

And it just did not resonate with me. And I really started to kind of move away from violin performance in big orchestras. And, uh, my interest towards, um, you know, natural plant medicine came as a mother, a very transitional time, motherhood. And it was by my husbands time.

It was in there that I met the world [00:23:00] that I now, you know, live in, which was, you know, vibrational medicine, um, the, uh, subconscious, um, and consciousness and, you know, the whole world of shamanism and plant medicine. I was very, very fortunate. I went to one homeopathy school, which was the London College of Homeopath, homeopathy, and I just couldn’t get it.

It didn’t resonate with me. And so I found, I read a book, um, on this, uh, it was actually the do of homeopathy and I actually changed schools to this very wacky school of, uh, homeopathy. And we learned all wackiness. That is now astonishingly, now you know, the fundamentals of homeopathy and it’s the sorry of psychedelics and the fundamentals of this whole new wave of young people who are coming into, you know, their, the medicine, you [00:24:00] know, plant medicine.

I was very, very fortunate to study in the right schools.

Giancarlo: But what is the link between pathy medicine and psychedelic medicine?

Sarah: It’s a very, very good question and uh, I don’t actually talk about it very much. Uh, I talk about it with people who have, who understand, uh, uh, homeopathy. But because it’s a marginalized medicine and alternative medicine, I don’t talk about it publicly at all, but we have a model of, uh, of, um, healing we have.

So, um, the program that I created, the, uh, method of. Psychedelic therapy, uh, which focuses on relationships and sexual wellbeing. Uh, it’s the beautiful space method. Um, it’s based on the maps, uh, MDMA protocol. And then it’s, uh, it’s very, uh, homeopathic actually. And I have never [00:25:00] said that publicly. Um, but the first thing is a case taking, and in that case taking, I’m sitting with each individual, even if they, they’re doing couples therapy, I will take, do a case taking with the individuals and I’m looking at, you know, what’s the story of their childhood, childhood story, family of origin, and trauma.

Uh, I’m writing down the whole of their timeline and their, uh, you know, the things that have made them who they’re, and that’s a very homeopathic case, taking, you know, this is my training. And then when we’re looking at homeopathy, we’re looking at resonance and we’re looking at direction of cure, and we’re.

Endometriosis, we’re looking at menopausal symptoms, or we’re looking at, um, imp [00:26:00] and, uh, you know, erectile dysfunction or we’re looking at, uh, high blood pressure and heart palpitations. Very, very physical. We’re looking at homeopathy. We’re looking at direction.

Many, many years with medicine. And that is, you know, one of the underpinning things that I brought across to. And we have, you know, symptoms for everything. You know, when we fantasize about suicide, you know, how do we fantasize, you know, these are deep questions that I ask. I might ask someone if they suicidal.

Um, when looking at trauma, what kind

does.

How does pleasure sit in the body? Where do you [00:27:00] feel it and what is your relationship with pleasure and pain? All of these are very much within the repertory of homeopathy.

Giancarlo: Yes. I guess you could say that both psychedelic and homeopathic medicines are holistic method versus the western. Health system, which is more reductionist.

Yeah,

Sarah: absolutely. Uh, and it’s multidimensional as well. Multi

Giancarlo: multidimensional, yes. Yes.

Sarah: Shamanism as well. And the origins of, you know, um, east West, when we’re looking at homeopathy, one of the things that I learned is we need a model of the whole system. And so I work with the chakra system and that is how I work with psilocybin and with, uh, psychedelic mindfulness is opening up the energy centers of each chakra.

And each chakra has, you know, it has a major organ connected with it, it has an element connected with it, and then it has a direction up the ness.[00:28:00]

Giancarlo: Yes. It’s, it’s all connected with the endocrine system, right.

Sarah: Yes, and the pineal gland. In homeopathy, we have these modern, uh, medicines, which gland, pituitary gland, um, you ayahuasca. And I’ve been working with those for a very, very time.

Giancarlo: Um. I just want to go deeper into, into this practice, uh, but just, just to do you mind sharing a little bit of your personal healing.

You know, you said you, you were scoring very high on the, on the childhood trauma, uh, um, scale, and did you say you had suicidal ideation? Yes. As a

Sarah: child. Um, I ran away a lot.

Giancarlo: You know, they say, they say, sorry to interrupt you, Sarah, but they say that, you know, the healing practice or the spiritual practice is not a linear practice.

Right. There is like, I. So it, it goes up in big step and sometimes even there’s some, you know, [00:29:00] the, the, the curve sometimes goes even down and there’s a big step. What would you say are the big step of your healings, of your healing process, if you don’t mind sharing?

Sarah: I would say, first of all, there was a bookshop in the, uh, in the town that my parents moved to in Buckingham Shear.

And I was very much into practicing my violin, a complete nerd. Um, I practiced my violin read books, um, and I didn’t drink, you know, I couldn’t tell. I too much of a introverted,

you know. Yeah. So very, very controlled. And this bookshop just led me to all of the reading that has been the fundamentals of opening my mind. So, you know, Herman Hess, um, [00:30:00] nie, you know, I read this as a early teenager and, and I found this and Taoism and Buddhism, and I found this place which resonated within this, uh, this place, this identity inside me, which was my, uh, Chinese Malaysian heritage, my Eastern heritage, and I gravitated towards it.

I was so hungry for a sense of belonging. And I found that belonging in books and then I found it through the practice of Buddhism. And then, uh, and then I really, you know, I would say becoming a mother and getting married was very, very, very difficult for me. It, and very challenging, but I would say in reflection, you know, we do all of our healing and relationship and it.

That I realized how much family meant to me and that, you know, the belief that I had of becoming a mother and the [00:31:00] resonance I have of being a mother is such a huge part of my identity. You know, the divorce was absolutely devastating for me financially. Uh, you know, mentally, emotionally, physically and spiritually.

It broke me down and it was breath work that brought me back again. And, uh, you know, my children had to deal with being raised by a single mother that my ex just kind of forced off and traveled the world and didn’t give a care for us. Didn’t support us at all and my children had to suffer with that.

And that is why I created beautiful space that you know, that I knew what it was through this great breakdown that I had, that I had never been shown through all the healing that I had done. I’d never been shown the wealth of relationships and how to really, you know, have long-term relationships and long romantic relationship [00:32:00] and to, you know, the necessity to love myself.

I also saw the effect of divorce on children where we’re actually a white paper. We’ve been creating this for a long time. It’s noted for psychedelic assisted therapy, couples therapy versus the cost of cost of divorce is massive.

Giancarlo: So. Sorry, with all due respect, but you haven’t really answered my question.

What do you think were, you know, for example, for me, if I have to say, okay, what is, what are, what were my big step in my healing process? I would definitely, I did, um, you know, Gabor Mate was doing a long time ago this retreat in Mexico together with a shaman. And so he would do, we would do ayahuasca night and then compassionate inquiry during the day.

And that was the beginning of my understanding of what is the subconscious material and how it can [00:33:00] rules your life. Then in, in re in rehab, in rehab, I did this, uh, psychodrama where I was able to, you know, um, uh, interpret, uh, or reenact my. 11 years old self when I was publicly humiliated in a tennis, in a tennis club by my father, and I was able to address him with the knowledge I have now in my 11 years old body.

That was very cathartic. And then I also had a very powerful breath work. And so I can, I can tell you pieces, you know, in the constellation of my healing. Uh, would you, would you be able to create a little bit of a constellation of your healing? Yeah,

Sarah (2): yeah, yeah. Sure. And I, I think I, I have been, because I, I heard your

Giancarlo: question.

So the divorce was very healing.

Sarah: No, no, no, no, no, no. The, the first time was this particular dream when I was eight years old, where, um, you know.[00:34:00]

The clothes peg that you hang, the clothes on the washing line had disappeared. They had disappeared and we were all in trouble. And it was like, oh my God, you know? And anyway, the night came and we went sleep. And in my dream in corns lakes.

And I got up in the morning this, you know, and I went to the cornflakes packet and I found the clothes pegs. That was the first. Uh, and I have asked myself many times, you know, have I had one big spiritual awakening? No, I’ve had all of these incremental things. So I knew very early on there was something else.

I knew very early on that my dreams were informing me. Um, I knew there was this one particular moment when I was on my way to performing, uh, violin. My dad was driving the car and I was just so fucking scared of missing this particular shift or [00:35:00] my violin. I was, because it would’ve given me.

Spent that ride was about 45 minutes because we driving from, you knows, into the center of London I performing and I myself.

So these incremental things that, uh, you know, I would say the bookshop, you know, coming into there, coming into motherhood, you know, this kind of real deep dive back into suicidal depression and, uh, postnatal depression. And actually the healthcare system came. I told one nurse, because you’re gonna have your baby weighed and said depressed.

I just visualizing myself, I.

And validated [00:36:00] and that I could be taken care of. So that was a very meaningful moment for me as well. You know, coming into, uh, you know, the divorce and going back into what we might call breakdown. Actually, there was a moment, uh, when I was in my training, when I met my inner child for the first time, uh, doing an exercise.

Yeah. And so many of them are just treating, uh, you know, educating in the protocols. Um, and even I would say the level of teaching in self-development isn’t good enough because those teachers haven’t been there themselves. But, um, the training that I was in, I met my inner child for the first time, and I was in floods of tears.

I didn’t know that that existed in me. So [00:37:00] there’s these incremental things. And now when I take psychedelics, you know, when I, when I, uh, first, uh, found Gabel mate’s work, I thought, oh, yes, we’re doing the same work. When I read Brian ips book, love Drugs, uh, love Drugs and Ethics, uh, love Drugs, love and Drugs, I can’t remember what it’s called.

Um, I thought, oh yes, we’re doing the same work when I read Esther pers book, uh, mating in Captivity, ah, yes, we’re doing the same work. You know, where is all this healing going? The ultimate healing, I would say is Sex and Sacred Union. And to be able to have that with a conscious partner is an absolute phenomenal part of sexual Yes,

Giancarlo: yes.

That,

Sarah: you know, I’ve been

Giancarlo: for to experience. Yes, yes, yes. I want, I want to go there now. I the, when I hear yourself talking about your healing episode, you, you talk about, you know, spiritual awakening and, um, I dunno if I’m reading too much, but you mentioned the [00:38:00] term universal resonance. So am I right to say that this understanding or or feeling of a cosmic consciousness.

That some philosopher of mind or quantum physicist would call it primary. So not as a epiphenomenon of the brain, but as a, as a fundamental part of the structure of reality. Right. Just, just to make it a little bit more clear for our audience, you know, I think you call it universal resonance, but, um, Carl Young would call it a collective unconscious.

Te te Shaan will call it Omega point. Erwin Schrodinger will call it unity of mind. Aldos Oxley will call it mind at large. David Bo will call it implicate order. John Eckles will call it dualistic interaction. Roger Penrose will call it orchestrated objective reduction. And recently, Bernardo Castro will call it idealism.

So all these giants, [00:39:00] they, and then the east have been saying that forever. I mean, this, this is just, this is just, this is just the west, right? I mean. If, if, if, if, if, like, you know, a Buddhist monk or a, you know, anybody from, from Dao, from tantra, from classical tantra, they’ve been saying that forever. But in the, in the, you know, in the west, we need our own intellectual to explain it a little bit more scientifically.

And, and so here we are. I mentioned this eight giant, but my question is not so much about the debate about this consciousness, primary or secondary, I feel that by itself is just for me, I’m, I’m more like a, a, a, a, you know, like a spiritual pragmatist. And, and so my question to you is why this?

Understanding of this consciousness as primary help us as in our healing.

Uh,[00:40:00]

Sarah: um, just to clarify, I’m skeptic too.

Giancarlo: Yes. About, about, about the culture as a primary or about what?

Sarah: No, it’s just my default setting. I, I have to know what’s true and truth to me resides in the body. I see. Uh, I’m.

Um, bias and I, uh, yeah, so a consciousness. I love that list of eight. Uh, I’d love to share that with me. You know, um, when we think and, and think Multidi, you know, the easiest thing is it helps, it helps to know. And, and when we, when we talk about [00:41:00] how it helps, when I’m working with people in the subconscious and they’re having a recovered memory of Egypt, um, and they’re, this is literally one of them.

He’s a, he’s watching in he arena and his wife is driving a golden chariot around. The forum. She is in her goddess era and she is that everything is glittering and gold. When I look at that as being true, he tells me that story in, and part of the program is this kind of hour and a half after the trip.

It’s called Finding the Story. We go deep into what did you hear, feel, see, and experience. We find the story, you know, that’s part of the story. And he saw his wife in there [00:42:00] and he was absolutely opened up and expanded. He loved her and she loved, he loved watching her in her fullness. When we believe that story is being true, as it happened somewhere in your, in your timeline, in the existence of your humanity, and we think it’s true.

And, uh, and it becomes his point, his i, I call it his reference point, his new reference point in how to see his wife, how to hold the space for the sacred intimacy of the relationship and his wife’s, uh, who she experienced, um, unc.

From she’s actually, uh, you know, tripping next to him and can’t quite get there, can’t let go. There’s impending doo and I to her in order for her to able go and to, [00:43:00] uh, to know, even know what happened because her mind is blocked, uh, from actually knowing what happened in that rape scene and that both of them are telling these stories of what happened in their trip, and he now holds the story of the relationship of her being in her chariot.

It becomes the story of the conscious couple into sacred intimacy practice. Fun.

The conscious couple who develop the practice of eye gazing. And, and there’s, you know, there’s different sections to it. This is taken from Master University and, uh, as he looks at her with, uh, unadulterated, um, appreciation, and that’s an exercise, um, and he sees her as this woman, she feels this sense of resonance.

And in there, there’s, there’s a coming together of the couple who has drifted [00:44:00] apart. Uh, there’s many, many, many, many stories of, you know, this kind of multidimensional existence of, uh, universal resonance, the collective unconscious. I, I’m very much into young,

Giancarlo: but, so I feel just very simply just this idea that, you know, if there is, uh, uh, uh, you know, a cosmic consciousness that we are all coming from and going back to it.

Just easier to just trust and surrender, I feel. Um, okay, let’s get into, let’s get, I mean, I, it’s funny, it was easy. No, but you know, like some people, you know, I have this discussion very often, you know, like, you know, there’s, I’m, I’m, I’m, I’m fascinated about the debate, you know, like, I dunno if you follow Sam Harris and, and the wife, Anika Harris.

Anika Harris just came out with a audio documentary called Lights On, where she explored this [00:45:00] possibility that consciousness is primary with all this quantum physicists. And, and, you know, most people are just, you know, they don’t really, they’re not interested because it’s very specific, it’s very technical and, and, and, and people don’t see the benefit.

But it helped me a lot, um, to know that. Like my wife used to say, you have to trust the universe. And I always say, but you know, the universe seems awfully distracted to me. But, but then once, once you have this moment where with psychedelic, with expanded state, with music, with meditation, you know, there is moment where you go in and out this like cosmic consciousness and you, you feel this cosmic design is just very reassuring.

It’s like, it’s like you, you feel that, okay, so there is a design. So, and also I feel that maybe this, you know, western neoliberal. Sense of times, scarcity, that we have to achieve everything in [00:46:00] this lifetime. Also, you feel, and it’s not easy, I’m not saying it’s easy, but you feel, okay, maybe this is a life journey and you know, this is a soul journey, and so maybe we do that in the next life.

You know, there is so much that for me, this understanding of, of, of, of a cosmic consciousness, uh, of the, you know, of the, of the soul journey. It’s been very helpful on my own personal healing. That’s why I,

Sarah: you know, something I say to everyone who comes to work with me and I say, as early as I can fit in.

Um, in order to change, you need to change your language. Human beings have evolved through language and, you know, when you lie on a piece of grass, what can you hear? And you keep lying there. Five minutes, 10 minutes, 20 minutes, hour and a half, and you don’t distract yourself from chatter. You know, what do you feel?

What do you hear? You know, is it, do you, can you actually hear that [00:47:00] thing? Which is the hum of the earth? Can you feel, can you place your hand on your heart and feel that your heartbeat has slowed? All of this is language. When we’re looking at consciousness as, as primary, you know, are, is consciousness all around us and we’re just distracted?

Hundred percent. How do we step into awareness? Daily practice? This is the gift that I have for music. It’s his, you know, uh, you have to practice something every single day. You have to evolve that practice. You know, I, I developed from, I don’t wanna practice, uh, hiding in the toilets, wrapping my arm up in a, in a, a thing pretending I broke my arm because I hadn’t done my practice to my teachers to practicing the resistance of practice, of doing what we know is good for us, of following the guidance of the mentor is really real.

That’s the struggle coming [00:48:00] through to eight hours a day. And I don’t want to put my violin down and my arm’s ache, but I can’t give up the practice. You know, that thing of, uh, and, and I work with people when they’re talking. They’ve had their trip. They have explored the most exquisite dimension of themselves.

And I’m an expert at dosing and tripping, and they, what they’ve said, and I have really helped them curate the language afterwards. And I say, I’m just gonna lean into what you’ve said and I’m gonna help you reconstruct that sentence to remind yourself of what it’s you’ve seen in yourself.

Giancarlo: Beautiful.

Beautiful. Okay, let’s get into the juicy part. Sex. So when? Sex.

Yes. Okay. So, so, so when, um, when did you realize that sexuality and pleasure was so deeply healing and probably deeply a way to connect with [00:49:00] the universal resonance?

Sarah: I wish we could spend podcast.

It was really around my own nature of curiosity and myself and my own playfulness. I lived in such a strict environment where, you know, I couldn’t leave the room without asking to go to the toilet. You know, uh, I was told every single thing that I had to think, believe, or that I was right or wrong. I never, I was never right, and, but within my own exploration of my own pleasure and playfulness, that’s where I found this place, which was so fun.

And it was, and, and, and I hid [00:50:00] exploration my own body and.

And, you know, the manifestation that I could do. And I didn’t know, I hadn’t read any books. It was just this natural inclination to go there. And so I, I found very, very, very early on and, uh, and it was a secret world, but when I came into music and I came into this place of, you know, flatlining, the, the mind and coming into this place of the imagination and actually, uh, what I would do as I was standing on a stage, I would imagine these, uh, kind of lines of resonance moving out to every.

And that’s how I kind of found this thing inside me. And then when I came into training within plant medicine and, and not forgetting I’d studied shamanism, [00:51:00] many of those practitioners were shamans and I was school in shamanism, deep practice of the, of traveling into the underground and spirit animals and the medicine wheel.

And I was using all of that in my work as well. And I came into training into the power of the deep and feminine and the sacral center and uh, and coming into there and exploring in my own orgasm what that meant when I was residing in there. And actually, what I found within my practice of, uh, uh, holistic alternative medicine is that as soon as I could get to the question of how is your libido.

Up and in there I start to develop, you know, mindfulness practices of living within the sacral center, whether it was a masculine or feminine, you know, coming [00:52:00] into, uh, this kind of, and I have experienced multiple times sexual abuse. Myself having to really come to terms with what happens there and the patriarchal existence of what happens to the men in that place.

In order for them to do that and for that to happen, you know, come to my own healing that, um, you know, to come into the fullness of what sex is and the power of sexuality. And then coming into what kept happening with my cases was I kept getting cases of sexual abuse, sexual abuse early on and working with ayahuasca in that.

So homeopathic potency, so incest, um, a female oppression. Um, the same my owns experience.

An ex [00:53:00] partner of mine, we would take psychedelics and, you know, and experience ex I would have, we would have a sexual through taking psychedelics with this, you know, when you can do that, uh, and then know that, you know, God exists and full creativity exists within that realm, you know? In my view, that’s where we’re all going.

Giancarlo: Yes. You know, the, um, there was this famous chemist who invented MDMA. Sasha, she, right. And sa and Sasha and the wife. I remember I interviewed them at Burning Man back in the days, and they were saying that, um, a psychedelic that is, that you can’t have sex with is not really interesting to us.

Sarah: The fir one of the first times I had took acid, I, I had sex on acid and I, I was actually in the process. I forgot I was having sex, and I, all I could see was these lights moving through my body, like neon lights, lighting [00:54:00] my whole body up. It was extraordinary. And I couldn’t remember that at the time I was actually having sex.

Giancarlo: So, which one, um, would you, what, what, um, when you were saying with the ex partner, you had this, um, sexual ecstasis, uh, that was, uh, with the Sabine.

Sarah: Cannabis.

Giancarlo: Cannabis.

Sarah: Um, but, but, uh, mdma, um, I would say, yeah, it’s probably called complex prescribing.

Giancarlo: It’s a complex co prescribing. Okay. But, so let’s get, let, let’s get, but let’s, let’s get into that.

Uh, what do you need? Okay. Let’s say there is a couple coming to you saying, listen, we stopped having sex six months ago or something, or even maybe longer. Um, we don’t feel desire for each other, but we love each other and we’d love to rekindle the desire and we want to try, uh, psychedelic assisted sexuality.

Wonderful. What is the process? What is the process for you to decide, decide, you know, uh, what to prescribe?

Sarah: Ah, this, my heart is [00:55:00] opening as you asking this question. Wish people this question of have three beautiful space babies.

Giancarlo: Three beautiful.

Sarah: Beautiful, what I call facing outward. They went through the process of facing inwards, of healing, of learning to trust, developing the language, learning to initiate ed, and coming into what I call conscious conception.

People come to beautiful space because, and this is the, uh, kind of younger generation, um, because they know that there’s wounding and healing that they wanna do before they have and conceive their child. That’s one group of people I work with, another group, uh, uh, part, an older couple that I’m working with.

They’re moving through. They, she couldn’t get pregnant. They moved through, I vf, it didn’t work, and they moved to surrogacy. And actually now, uh, the surrogate has, uh, become pregnant. So, uh, [00:56:00] they’re doing their work in becoming the conscious couple. And that’s the journey that couples go on.

Giancarlo: Thank you for sharing.

In term of like prescribing the right medicine and the right protocol, how, how does it work? Why some couple, would you recommend more like low dose, Sabine, some other maybe microdosing, LSD or some other MDMA? Um, and and do you do that at, at your center in Holland?

Sarah: No,

Giancarlo: no, no.

Sarah: I only work with psilocybin. I work with psilocybin.

I work for mindfulness. I work with breath work. Um, they have to read books. So the program of psychological support is safe. Set, setting an integration. Um, first, yeah, so that’s, uh, my, the, my protocol for safe psychedelics set, setting an integration. They’re very aware of the process that they’re in. First of all, there is a case taking, [00:57:00] and there we’re looking at, uh, generational trauma.

We’re looking at childhood story, family of origin and trauma. And, uh, so they understand how their childhood affected their,

Giancarlo: sorry, Sarah. Can, can you repeat the three things? So family of origin. The, the three, the three element you’re looking to when you start the container. It’s fam it’s like the dynamic of the family of origin.

Sarah: Yes. Family of origin, childhood story and trauma.

Giancarlo: Childhood, his story and trauma. Yes.

Sarah: You know, I’m, I’m asking them, have you taken psychedelics before? Have you, do you have a spiritual practice? If, if you do, what is it? Also, what has happened in the relationship? You know, what actually coming for, and they might say, uh, we’re not having intimacy.

You know, someone, one. Their mojo. Um, someone, uh, one in there might be overuse of alcohol and Adi uh, you know, addictive substances. [00:58:00] Um, you know, we’re looking at the pathology of the couple. So that is what this is all in preparation before they take the medicine. Um, at the very beginning of working with a couple, I’ll ask them to adopt their own mindfulness practice.

This just starts with 10 minutes a day, but they’ll also be reading books. They’re expanding their mindset. They’re reading Esther per in captivity. They’re reading, uh, G mate. They’re reading how to Check Michael Poll, and they’re reading Vander. That’s, we have a fundamental reading list that, uh, they need to have read before they take the medicine.

All of this is safe psychedelics, set, setting and integration. So we’re able to talk about things that they weren’t able to, you know, before entering the program. They’re also asked to, um, men in particular. To sign up to Sam Harris’s waking up app and to [00:59:00] really understand what the process of consciousness is, and that there’s huge community in there.

And they’re, uh, you know, encouraged to find community, either local or online. You know, for her she needs to start asking herself, you know, her relationships with around her, you know, which relationships benefit you, you know, uh, and this comes into the setting. Um, you know, uh, another thing that they’re asked to do in the first couples session, uh, I ask them to do eye gazing, all of this.

So it’s hybrid therapy online and in person. These preparation sessions are online, so I asked them to get their chairs, uh, comfortable to get their bodies facing each other and to just come into looking at each other in their eyes. Some couples can’t do that. There’s been so much resentment, so much hurt affairs.

You know, people might already be in the affair as they, they’re trying to exit the affair as they’re in [01:00:00] therapy. You know, they are, uh, you know, someone has spent all the money and they’ve left the family without money. You know, money. These fundamental Maslow’s hierarchy of needs is one of, you know, the, the models that I work with, you know, the safety and the trust has gone.

So, uh, you know, I also say, is there a fundamental conversation that needs to happen here in order for you to trust across. The Bridge of trust. This is, uh, the work that comes from Terry Real. So, uh, very much into internal family systems and which is Richard Schwartz and very much into the work of Terrence Real, which, uh, his phenomenal book.

But this exercise comes from his body of work, the bridge of trust. You know, either both of you need to meet in the middle, or one of you needs to go to meet the other person across this bridge of trust. So we have fundamental con conversations, which are facilitated, but all of the work [01:01:00] is built around this daily eye gazing, which is, uh, you know, brings up so much, you know.

I can’t show up. I can’t do every excuse under the sun. I can’t turn up to show to eye gazing. So, you know, no compassionate inquiry, you know, there’s no judgment here of what’s going on. We just work with what’s in the room. Um, all of this is still in preparation. It’s a very, it’s an intensive, it’s three months.

Giancarlo: Three months.

Sarah: Yeah.

Giancarlo: And mostly, mostly online. What’s the share between online, offline?

Sarah: Yeah. It’s six weeks online, three days in a person, and then back, uh, six weeks online in integration.

Giancarlo: And the in person happens in, uh, in Holland. Amazing. Amazing, amazing. I really, I really, really, really understand how, um, this container could work, but Okay.

Um, continue because you haven’t finished about Yeah,

Sarah: yeah. There’s, there’s, there’s a [01:02:00] really important part in this, that as, as the couple comes into what I call inward facing, which is the eye gazing, you know, I, uh, my train plus my training is the wheel of consent, which is a absolutely phenomenal body of work.

Most of us didn’t know that consent existed when we were having drunken sex in our, you know, twenties back then in the eighties.

Giancarlo: I know, I know,

Sarah: I know. And, uh, you know, when we talk, when we bring that to a couple who are in their thirties, forties, fifties, sixties, and we say, let’s talk about consent here, what it means, what it feels like in the body.

And they, you know, they’re like, oh my God, I, how old was I when I abandoned my own body? That’s part of actually the, the huge grief that, uh, is, comes out in the home, um, in the psychedelic, uh, experience is the grief of how long they’ve abandoned themselves for. And coming to terms with that and making amends the [01:03:00] atonement that goes on with that.

If there’s been infidelity, if there’s been a massive breach of trust, I say to them, you should expect this to take at least two years. I’ve been working with one couple for about two and a half years now, and they’ve been doing multiple doses of psilocybin with me, and they can now take very high doses.

And, you know, the healing there has been phenomenal and they still haven’t had sex, but they’re, they’re getting ready to.

Giancarlo: So two and a half years of, of celibacy?

Sarah: No, they haven’t had sex for seven years.

Giancarlo: Oh, wow. But so, sorry Sarah, let me, can you guide me through. So you were saying there is a booking, uh, you know, amazing list of books that of course we all understand.

It’s the, it’s the Bible of this new paradigm of holistic healing, somatic healing. Um, I. Together with, with Esther and, and the, the, this idea of, [01:04:00] um, of, of infidelity that could be like a new beginning rather than an end. Right? But so, but so, so you have, you said, um, six weeks of online, then three days in person.

At which moment you, you prescribe the, the, the, the mushroom. And how do you decide, and how much is the doors and how do you choose the doors? And is there a booster option? How long is it? How is it held?

Sarah (2): Can I just say one thing before all that?

Giancarlo: Of course, of course, of course.

Sarah (2): There’s one session which is

Sarah: before the medicine day and it’s still online, and it’s called Preparation two, and it’s called Finding Your Future Story.

It’s very much about awakening in awakening intention, and so there’s a point where we leave the past, we look at the present, and then we focus on the future. And all of that’s in preparation. And when we’re focusing on the future, we’re crystallizing the intention and they say, oh, I wanna be close. I wanna be how we [01:05:00] used to be.

I wanna be, I want to have time to myself. I want to go away on a girl’s trip. I wanna have with other people. I wanna have better sex with you, and you are overweight and drunk and all of that. We take into the medicine day and such there’s such, you know, everyone flies in and. We start the day before the medicine day, which is the heart opening ceremony, and I bring the candle, the flame of transformation, and I bring the music and we sit down in circle and we talk.

And you know, we bring what’s ever in the room there. And you know, maybe there’s been a rupture on the way here. Uh, you know, maybe something has happened since the last session and she’s completely left the building again. [01:06:00] That’s how Stablish she has. She still is, uh, you know, fundamentally grounded based chakra.

And um, you know, or maybe they’re just exhaust because they’ve been flying around the world, very busy lives. I work in this kind of very interesting bracket of people, which are kind of very busy people. And, um. They’re exhausted. You know, they’re, they’re time jet lags and all of this, uh, will inform the dose.

And uh, or maybe they’re ready, they’re excited, they’re nervous, but yes, let’s just get on with it. And in here, I take them through a guided meditation and I’ve actually taken them through guided meditations online before because I wanna know personally as a practitioner how they can relax. Whether they can visualize, whether they, uh, you know, can’t focus at all.

And all of this is in preparation for this. So once again, we’ll do another guided [01:07:00] visualization, but I’ll also get them to face each other and I’ll get them to, um, almost lean in and whisper and I lean out as the practitioner, um, so that they have that privacy and they talk to each other about what it’s that they’re here to do and the promises that they’re making.

And we open the heart in that way. The next day they come, uh, sorry. It starts and it starts early, and we go for a walk in nature and we’re coming into this universal residence. What, which part we we’re collecting. We’re gathering the sacred table. We’re bringing part of nature indoors when we’re making the goes middle, and really helping them to tune into the actually this stage, you know, which.

Calling to be plucked and to be brought in and in there way. I’m helping them come into their, and come into this, you know, sense of connection. We build the sacred table, we prepare the medicine, the music is on [01:08:00] instructions to make, you know, we’ve prepared their nests. They, they trip separately, not too close.

I say they might wanna move closer together, but, um, to move apart from each other to start like that, because sometimes the energy is just too much for the other person to get into it. If one person’s crying and one person’s listening to opera and having the most ecstatic time, you know, what can happen is this person wants to go and take care of that person and they’re constantly interrupting their trip.

And I say to them, that’s my job. I’m now the sitter and the, and the guide. I’m here to hold space. So, you know, uh, dosage wise, I have a pretty standard dose, which is the research dose of 2.5 grams. Um, if I feel that there is particular sensitivity, I’ll look to giving two grams, but I’d much rather give 2.5 grams.

Um, and [01:09:00] then if I feel there’s a particular kind of strength inside the person, um, bravery, emotional curiosity, I will kind of go up to five and, uh, sorry, three and a half grams. If I’ve been working with this person for a long time, I’ll give them five grams and I have given up to seven grams as well.

Giancarlo: Of, of like golden teacher or,

Sarah: um, I work with, uh, a particular, it’s very spiritual.

Uh, it’s a particular, uh, truffle because I’m working with truffles,

Giancarlo: uh, like, like the Spinoza. Yeah.

Sarah: Yeah. So everything that we do at beautiful space is legal.

Giancarlo: Amazing. But, so, okay. But, so guide me through the, the, the conclusion, the integration. So the couple have their journey. Not too close, and you make sure that they don’t interfere too much in each other’s journey.

Sarah (2): Um, you know, someone might say, she might keep asking, can I go and snuggle in? Can I go, you know, that bed? It looks so good. Someone’s on the sofa, someone’s on the [01:10:00] bed, or someone’s on a mat, you know, it is.

Sarah: Um, and I, I, yes, absolutely, as long as it doesn’t disturb him, and actually the trip after that when, you know, when they’re feeling that kind of nestled comfort is extraordinary When they can trip like that.

Um, yeah. So afterwards, the tripping is finished and you know, I say it’s I unit.

The theory of ego death is, but here we talk about it and we talk about finding the story, what happened in relationship to, and, and this is what happens. You know, they’ll talk about their childhood with each other and they’ll talk in such depth, and it might be, I didn’t know that, that sounds, that I could hear was actually my mother and father.

My [01:11:00] father beating my mother downstairs in the kitchen and I was upstairs keeping my brothers safe. Or I had the visions of me carrying under the chair because that’s the only place I felt.

All of a sudden they understand that each other’s sensitivities and vulnerabilities, and they’re able to talk about it in a safe container where there’s no judgment, no sense of ridicule, that they’re actually being believed that they’ve gone through this multidimensional experience of these recovered experiences.

And the, the relationship can accommodate the each person in what I call moving into relationship 2.0. And with relationship 2.0 comes sex 2.0, which is the sacred intimacy.

Giancarlo: But, so this is, seems such a delicate dance, [01:12:00] right? To, because you know from experience, I know that these, you know, journeys that can go in so many different directions, and so here we have.

Two journey that can influence each other. Increasing the chance, increasing the, the directionalities if you want, right? If, if my trip can go in 10 different ways and your trip can go in 10 different way, our trip together can go in 1000 different. But anyhow. And then, and then, so you need to be really skillful in understanding how to moderate their co-regulation under the effect.

And then as on the landing, when they start sharing maybe the more intimate childhood stuff, also how, you know, what kind of moderation would you then, if they go, what you might consider. In a not very useful tangent, would you bring them back? I mean, it’s, it’s, it’s, um, it’s interesting. How, how [01:13:00] do you, how do you moderate both?

How do you moderate their interaction and their integration?

Sarah: Very, very, very good question. This comes from a man who knows.

Yeah. It’s, I do actually have to say to them, um, because they, there can be a leaning towards the individual overtaking the couple. If I feel that there’s too much individual work to do. In. I recommend that individuals, um, and more, and I’m.

Them tripping individually. Sorry. It, it can happen in, in many different ways. That they come into the program separately and then they trip separately, or they can come into the programs individually and then they trip together. Uh, that’s a really interesting [01:14:00] model, because then they learn about tripping with other people.

But, um, so, you know, they might, you know, so they’re talking about who they’re, and what’s made them, who they’re, and what is it that’s been showing up in the relationship and why I did, why I spent all the money because of X, Y, Z, or why I’ve been talking to you as though you’re not a really, because then, and in here I remind.

So I’ll bring the conversation back into what happens after the medicine day is that the next day is integration one, and in integration one, we create the plan forward. And in the plan forward it is if, how do we build safety back into the relationship? How do you listen to your partner when she says to you.

[01:15:00] I need you and how are you gonna listen and acknowledge that what the words that you gonna use, she feels heard and don’t into this reactive

Giancarlo: like magic. People don’t understand how powerful this is. You know, um, you know, Rick Dublin from maps, it would, it would stay, it would stay with us in New York when he was coming to New York.

And every few months, like very regularly, every three, four months, he would bring us what he, what he calls the couple medicine. So it will leave us this little envelope. And then when we would speak on the phone, he would say, did you get the, did you take the couple medicine? And, and, and, and, and my wife and I, we were, you know, we would get to a point in our relationship where, you know, we would accumulate, you know, unexpressed expectation that would subconsciously become resentment.

And, and, but with the medicine, you know, it’s like, it’s like magic. It’s [01:16:00] like you see the situation from the other person point of view. It’s, it’s like, it’s incredible. It’s like, it should be, you know, it should be taken into. Into place, uh, you know, into, into, into place of war. And, um, you know, I I, I usually say it should be, you know, um, in a civil society made it, made, made it compulsory for couple, once a year to, to have this device where you can go on the other people’s head and see your, your, your conflict from the other person point of view, and with the softness that comes from this heart opening.

Sarah (2): Yeah. MDMA can’t be ignored here as well.

Sarah: You know, it’s like the, the, the wall that gets built between people. One brick of resentment after another. You know, why didn’t you park the car in the right place? There goes a brick. Um, you know, why do I have to tell [01:17:00] you to put the children’s shoes there? Every single time?

Um, you know, there goes another book of resentment and M DMA just allows this wall to come down.

Giancarlo: That’s such a good metaphor. But, so, but, so in Holland, the MDMA is illegal. It’s not legal. But it, it’s so funny how mushroom is legal, but MDMA is not legal, eh?

Sarah: Yeah. It’s psilocybin truffles that are legal because it grows underground, is the loophole that is there.

Ah, it’s his phenomenal. Yeah. Yeah. But I wanna say, you know, when we’re looking at dosage, uh, and just really interesting to me because I’m a homeopath and, uh, you know, working, and I do work with couples. I work at my, my client base comes from all over the world. Australia, America, you know, the Middle East, the uk and Europe, uh, south America.

And it is, you [01:18:00] know, I need to work with some clients online and, you know, I, I might be, you know, inverted prescribing, you know, a certain dosage because I know that they need to have an. Conversation. So I’m can’t be in the room when they’re tripping because I don’t sit online when they’re actually tripping.

I’ll hold ceremony online to begin with, and then we’ll have ceremony afterwards. But they’re actually, so we’ll do a dose and I might work at 1.5 s if they’ve done the breath work. They’ve done the eye gazing, they’ve done the visualization. They understand what happens with their body when their partner’s eye gazing with them.

That’s a very interesting thing of what intimacy is. What happens to me when my partner is looking at me? You know, into me. I see it’s about self-awareness and self-knowledge and uh, you know, so I work at that level. And in that level it becomes a bit giggly. You know, they can [01:19:00] talk, you know, the wall, the wall of resentment goes away and in their, you know, I tell them to be very careful about what they’re talking about and to stay on this, you know, talk about neuroplasticity and shaking the snow globe and that everything is being reconstructed at this stage.

And, uh, you know, when they’re tripping on two, 2.5 grams, they’re going into their own childhood story and generational story. And you know, in there they can’t talk. And it’s not about the wall of resentment coming down, it’s about coming into knowing themselves better when they’re taking five grams, they’re going into a deep state of, uh, universal consciousness.

They become an ATO and they don’t exist anymore, and they come back to tell the, you know how you share meaning of you [01:20:00] alcoholism. And empathy and compassion, you know, that conversation between the couple is very different. Beautiful.

Giancarlo: Beautiful. Um, I mean, I have goosebump, but tell me wh why, what is the loophole?

Why truffle? Because it grows underground is legal, but so normal mushroom is not legal in Holland. Like the golden teacher or the No, no, but what is the loophole? Because it’s, it’s like a, it’s like a potato.

Sarah: I think it’s because it’s not a fully formed fruiting body, but, uh, I, I don’t, I can’t remember, but it, it does actually have the same amount of psilocybin in it.

Giancarlo: I see, I see, I see, I see.

Sarah: Yeah. I mean, I do, I also work in The Bahamas.

Giancarlo: I see. So,

Sarah: and everything is legal there, so, uh, yeah, I can, I can use mushrooms there as well.

Giancarlo: Amazing, amazing. Do do, do you have a bit more time or, I mean, or we can do another episode I’d, I’d love to explore a little bit the [01:21:00] concept of non-monogamy, ethical non-monogamy. Oh, yes,

yes.

Sarah: So

Giancarlo: fascinating. Should we do it now or should we do a dedicated episode? Let’s do, let’s

Sarah: do.

Sarah (2): Is it an area of interest of yours?

Giancarlo: So, so, you know, my father was practicing non-consensual, non-monogamy, like Italian style. And, uh, and a dear friend of mine is a filmmaker called Tao Ru Poly, whose father also was practicing non-consensual. And we were both traumatized because we saw, I mean, I remember endless number of women in tears.

And, and I remember endless episode of, uh, you know, we were asked to be accomplished in pretending to, you know, to create alibi, to justify the infidelity. And I was, it was clearly that that was not, you know, with the [01:22:00] eyes of 10, 11, 12, 13 years old. You idolize your father and you thing, he’s good. But then, you know, anyhow, so both Tao and I were a little bit traumatized by that.

And we love the idea that the same thing can happen, but ethically, you know, where, where you allow the other person to do the same and it can be an opportunity for growth and, you know, exploring jealousy and compersion and the Burning Man culture. And so we, we produce a documentary. I mean, he directed and I produced a documentary called Monogamish that I’m happy Ah, I’m, I’m happy to share with you.

Sarah: Yes, I’d love to watch that. Thank you. Yes.

Giancarlo: And we interview Esther Perel like 20 years ago. Oh, oh my. And we interview. Yeah. And, and, and, and, uh, Dan Savage. And, um, what, what’s the guy of the Saxon, um, anyhow, uh, and, and historians and anthropologist and, and [01:23:00] you know, for me. It’s, it’s more like a theoretical model than I never really, uh, we never really decided to practice my wife and I, but intellectually, I see.

I’m curious, you know, uh, and so I wonder, um, I wonder how, you know, I wonder how this, this, this, this agreement could be integrated in your, um, you know, safe system, um, container. If it’s something that peop that, you know, would you help people maybe couple that want to explore, I would recommend them to come to you and say, okay, we need help to go and explore the motivation, the resistance, the fear around this decision.

Is it right, is it wrong? How can we do it? Because it. So much. It’s so much a minefield, right?

Sarah: It’s so much a [01:24:00] minefield that, uh, it’s almost easier not to address it

and you know, to have two conscious people who are willing to show up.

Transgressions microregressions that you can do and fuck it all up and send, you know, it’s a game of snakes and ladders and send you right back to the beginning. Um, I, so I do work in this realm and I, I would say it’s, there’s, I have a few special, I have a number of specialties. One is conscious conception, the other is perimenopause and menopause, and the, the female flourishing into the divine, uh, divine feminine.

And then consensual non-monogamy is also a of mine. Uh, also creativity and creative breakthroughs. Our specialty of mine, how to change careers, how to develop yourself, you know, [01:25:00] creatively. But, you know, looking at consensual non-monogamy, it, it’s, it’s something that I, whether I’ve practiced successfully or unsuccessfully, I have definitely been practicing, uh, for I would say the, the full, uh, life of my sexual life.

And I knew very early on in my teens that I wanted to go in that direction. I, uh, one of the first places I lived outta, um, my family home was in a family that was practicing consensual non-monogamy. It was an open relationship and suddenly everything clicked into place the way I was feeling with the pleasure that I was, you know, kind of learning about in a very constricted environment that I grew up in, you know, that you can have with exploration, with your own kind of sensuality and pleasure, you know, you can experience that with people and with many, but there are no boundaries that you can be free.

Uh, you know, I found [01:26:00] my place, um, you know, it, the depths of conversation and the depths of showing up to who you’re, and what you’re bringing to the relationship addressing, um, attachments. Original attachments, addressing compassion, which is being happy for other people’s happiness. You know, coming into compassion addressing what physical pain actually feels like when your partner is out, having sex with another person and calming back and wanting to have sex with you because that thing didn’t go very well.

Or you know, these very messed up things that the messed upness. The human condition has kind of boxed us into, and we’re doing it in full vulnerability with our partner. I work with people who, you know, they’ve been practicing consensual non-monogamy, but one person’s in a [01:27:00] work thing and they’re using all of their creative energy in a startup, and she, she’s allowed to go and meet other people and she’s met someone and she actually prefers the sex and is falling in love with this person.

You know, how do you bring that back into the relationship? And do I trust my own instincts? You know, what happens when I, you know, one person? What’s the ritual and ceremony? This is one of the fundamental practices in beautiful space ceremony and the relationship. What ritual and ceremony do I need to practice with my partner that creates an, uh, element of exclusivity.

That means that when they have a relationship with someone else, we remain as the primary couple. Yet when you look at Jessica Fern’s work, that’s a phenomenal book. Have you read that?

Giancarlo: Yes. Recently on attachment. Right.

Sarah: Uh, when we are looking at, you know, there is no hierarchical, there is no primary, uh, relationship, you [01:28:00] know, uh, person you’re looking at, a non-hierarchical attachment to oneself is the, the main person within the attachment.

And when you’re looking at, um, you know, uh, you know, kind of consensual, non-monogamy is this huge trending. Going the moment. And you have 20 year olds, even 30 year olds, saying I’m in an open relationship and I’m, we consensually non, but actually they’re not all, and they’re just around.

Giancarlo: They’re not all,

Sarah: you know. Uh, so yeah, I, it’s, it’s an absolute honor to be an invitee into those relationships and renegotiate the terms of engagement to come into relationship, to 0.0, what does an exclusive relationship sound like in words and in. I [01:29:00] love that sex that I’m having with the other person. And I come back and I really, really wanna connect with you, but the sex is become stale.

What can we do in this relationship and explore this new place of creativity? That means we remain, you know, the primary couple.

Giancarlo: Beautiful, beautiful. Sarah, it has been an hour and a half. It has been such a delight to hear how you’ve been successful integrating this, all these different important practice of presence, contemplative practice, psychedelic assisted psychotherapy, psychedelic assisted sexuality into your, um, beautiful space method.

Um, I would recommend everybody.

I mean, who, who would you not? Um, I mean, probably for the psychedelic piece, maybe if there is, you know, a [01:30:00] preexisting condition of, of, of, of schizophrenia or maybe I, I would be careful with that. But, and maybe, maybe, maybe, you know, maybe teenager is a bit early, but otherwise, you know, from 20 to 80, I feel that everybody should be through the beautiful method, um, beautiful space method.

Okay. So how can all these people find you?

Sarah (2): Thank you.

Sarah: Um, um, my website is beautiful space.org. Um, I’m on, uh, Instagram, which is Sarah Tilly ly Wellness. Yeah, I.

Giancarlo: Amazing. Amazing. We’ll put all this, um, data on the show notes and also, uh, we’d love to invite you. We are building a long-term retreat space in Ibiza town called, called Diffusal. Basically

Sarah: when, when is it ready? So

Giancarlo: a [01:31:00] few rooms are already ready, you know, um, we already started, we had an agent from Hollywood.

She came from a month for a month and a half. You know, we recommend from one to nine months, as we were saying. And, um, you know, the, it doesn’t have to be full time. You know, this agent for this Hollywood manager, for example, she was working at night with LA and she would do four, five hours of therapy per day.

A combination of somatic therapy, expanded state, and also, um, you know, being part of this community. So we cre we created, I don’t know how familiar you are with intentional community like Tamara Dam. Very, I’m not.

Sarah: In a which one?

Giancarlo: I grow,

Sarah: Tamara. It’s too German. I was

about to speak.

Giancarlo: [01:32:00] No,

Sarah: I, I lived in Spain. I I lived in Spain for five years and I speak Spanish. Uh, I, I love the weather. Um, you know, if you have a conscious community in Ibiza, I’m coming. You won’t be able to get

Giancarlo: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Actually, that’s what I was saying. So we would love to invite you. We have a visiting therapist program where basically, you know, like Tamara, you know, Tamara has the resident, it’s maybe 150 people, and they have these two main container, right?

The, the peace project and the sexuality project. Right. The, the love school and the preschool, more political, more sexual, and, and then they have three, 400 visitor coming every year and they work and they learn from the resident. So I’m trying to adapt this model. To this 20 liter apartment that we bought in the old town of Ibiza.

So half would be resident, mostly somatic therapist, and maybe, or maybe two third resident, one third visitor. Everything is very fluid and when the [01:33:00] visitor comes, they are part of this ecosystem of therapist and you know, they, uh, it’s either they respond to a container that we design or we create one for the person and, and, and, yeah.

Allow me a few minutes on that because, um, I know you, I know you get it completely. Um, you know, it’s, this diffusal method is based, um, on what work for my wife and I. Right. So it’s three pillars, the expanded state or the cathartic. Moment, the somatic therapy and then the ritual in community. And that’s what, you know, like my wife and I, we went through the expanded state phase and it was great.

You know, you, you do see your connected self, like you see a lighthouse, but the mistake most people do is that okay, you know, you see the lighthouse, but you still need to swim there. You know, the psychedelic, the expanded state of breathwork, they’re not gonna do the work for you. [01:34:00] They’re gonna just help you to see where, where is the GPS, where is the, the lighthouse that, that represent your connected self, your whole self, your authentic self, whatever you wanna call it.

But then you have to get there. And the way to get there, it was the somatic work. And you, among anybody, uh, have, have created the best, the best, the best method for that. But then even like that, even when we discovered Gabor and we dis, we started doing the Compassion Inquiry, you know, New York, we had a fantastic community in New York, but still was still a little bit, you know, transactional and transient.

And when we find the community in Ibiza, you know, the joke is that. Ibiza, everybody’s in a pro is on a process all the time, but, so that’s our tribe, the people processing. And all of a sudden we felt part of this processing community. And my wife had been sober for 10 years, and I’ve been sober now for three years.

You know, people think you go to Ibiza to party, [01:35:00] and I went to IBI and became sober. So, so basically we are trying to, you know, have the resident that represent these three pillars, the community builder, the expanded state guide, the somatic therapist, and when the visitor comes already, find this group that is been working with these tools, tools like, like they do in Tamara.

And it is challenging, you know, when, because when, when, when you try to bring people together and everybody has their own shadows, their own pain bodies, their own expectation and resentment. It’s, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s not an easy practice, but it’s a worthwhile practice.

Sarah: Well,

Sarah (2): well done for, you know, dedicating yourself to

Sarah: doing that and, and committing to it if you’ve, uh, you know, bought a building.

Sarah (2): Um, yeah, uh, it sounds absolutely fascinating and I’d love to come and witness that. I do think that

Sarah: healing, you know, when you’re looking at two years really for people to see what change needs to happen and [01:36:00] then to actually have fully realized, you know, to change your life around, um, uh, you know, it takes two years.

It’s the grief process,

Giancarlo: uh, um, amazing. That’s what sometimes I say, it took me 20 years to, to, to, to, you know, to be healed enough. Not completely healed, but healed enough to be aware. And what I would like to do now is try to help people to just make it a little bit less time because 20 years is a long time.

Sarah (2): Yeah. Well in psychedelics you have accelerated therapy.

Giancarlo: Exactly. Exactly. Okay, fantastic. So thank you so much and uh, now offline, I’m gonna pick the days for when you’re gonna come and see us. Stay with us.

Sarah: Wonderful.

Giancarlo: Thank you Sarah. Thank you so much. Thank you