20: Thomas Ermacora on Strengthening Communities Using Technology and Strategic Place-making

For further details about Thomas and his projects:
Facebook
LinkedIn
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For further research on those, and topics mentioned:
Bruce Parry – Tawai
1992 World Summit
COP
Greta Thunberg
Nuclear fusion
Mimcry
Jay Harman/ Bio-mimicry
Planet Labs
Loess Plateau
Kogi
Galileo
Pontifical Academy of Sciences
Mayor of Miami & Cryptocurrency
Extinction Rebellion
Blockchain
Recoded City
Dunbar Number
Clear Village
Johan Hari
Terra Viva
Pachamama
Damanhur
Tamera
Jared Diamond
Bahai
Bahaullah
Holotropia

Giancarlo: [00:00:00] Hello. Hi, welcome to this episode of the Mango TV podcast. Today we have a very special guest, Thomas Ermakura. I will read a quick biography as usual. Thomas Ermakura is a city futurist, impact investor, and open innovation thinker. Working to leverage the tools of the fourth industrial revolution and novel urban strategies to solve some of humanity’s most pressing problems.

With a focus on climate adaptation and community well being. He wants to [00:01:00] redefine the way cities and neighborhoods self organize through participatory processes and support strategic change making and scaling of planetary stewardship movement. He has always been interested in regenerative resilience Uh, civilization and its early manifestation coming from crowdsourcing climate solution.

Um, welcome Thomas. 

Thomas: Thank you. 

Giancarlo: So I just, as usually in a couple of minutes, I love to give some context on, on, on why Thomas is with us. Um, as you guys know by now, Mango TV was started mostly as, um, documenting the psychedelic scientific revolution, if you want. And then from there, we move into this concept of, of regeneration.

You know, what does it mean to, to keep on reinventing yourself and what’s the difference with transformation and with evolution and the idea of, Um, you know, the, the container where we live, the cities, [00:02:00] this, um, idea of community that we explore with Bruce Perry in his documentary has been, is not only critical to us, but is critical to the fate of this planet.

So Thomas is an expert on that, is an expert on, um, civilization design and urban design. So we’re going to pick his brain, but first, um, let us know a little bit how the, your personal journey began. 

Thomas: Thank you Giancarlo. Um, I would go back to 1992 when the first world summit happened in Rio, and the world was gathered around what was at the time known as the Brunton Report, written in 1987, defining the next stage of what one could call the limits of growth.

of the way that humans, you live on this planet. And if in 1973 we start to have scientific evidence of overstretching [00:03:00] ourselves on this planet, in 1987 became a lot clearer and climate scientists were starting to have the consensus necessary to impact policy. And in 1992 there was a movement to create the summit which later became the COPS.

And, uh, there was a rise of youth, you could call it, after 1989 with the fall of the Berlin Wall. There was, you know, a new energy around and if the end of history had begun, as Francis Fukuyama, um, coined it, um, where we should all live in a, you know, Western democratic civilization and gradually impact that on the rest of the world.

Very hopeful thought, which of course hasn’t manifested. So in 1992, there was this effervescence around youth and it gave me as a young man, I was not a man yet, I was only 16, actually less, just under 16, the opportunity to connect with lots of other young souls. And what you see today with Greta, you know, [00:04:00] was at the time a little bit similar.

So that was my ignition point where. I knew that, um, you know, ideologies and things that drove most people, uh, and the generations prior to mine, were not really the things that we would fight for. And we would fight for maybe something we could call planetary stewardship and, you know, finding our peace with nature.

And that was very, conscious as a decision for me to, you know, embed myself in that movement. I didn’t know where to start, I didn’t know what I was going to be, but I knew I was going to work on that. 

Giancarlo: And then the entry point was architecture. 

Thomas: In, in, in sorts, yes, uh, so I studied, uh, physical chemistry engineering to start, uh, in America, at Northwestern, and, um, I discovered psychedelics, and that took me away from, uh, I discovered psychedelics and women at the same time, and that was very confusing and jarring to my scientific mind, [00:05:00] so.

Um, it was, uh, let’s say, enough of an incentive for me to explore the humanities and philosophy and I studied ethics and, you know, the German philosophers, etc. And gradually, you know, the reason why I went to physical chemistry was to study thermonuclear energy and be part of the fusion, uh, journey. As you may know, we, We may become commercial fusion, you know, um, be able to manifest commercial fusion within the next couple of decades, which would be really exciting for endless cheap energy, which would probably redefine the maps.

But 

Giancarlo: can you maybe explain commercial fusing? 

Thomas: Yes. So as you know, nuclear power today is mostly or 99%, um, you know, derived from, uh, fission, which is actually. Okay. You know, we’re using, we’re using radioactivity, uh, to create energy and then we have to contain that radioactivity. In fusion, you know, we create a context where, um, uh, atoms collide and they fuse [00:06:00] and that releases enormous amounts of energy.

And the way that we had found out we could do this was to create what’s called a plasma, which is a more or less like being a little sun. Um, and, uh, we just, you were using magnets, uh, it’s called a, um, Tokamak, uh, and still today we’re working some of the similar technology even though we’re evolving this towards laser technology right, gradually.

But basically, you know, you had to create, uh, use a huge amount of energy and still have to, uh, to create a magnetic field that can contain this high temperature plasma in which atoms of, um, hydrogen and deuterium, uh, can fuse and release extraordinary amounts of energy. So this, you know, to simplify it, you know, this is something that, you know, we want to be able to do and we’re gradually going to do it, but there hasn’t been a way to control this and produce more energy than we consume.

If I may, I’m going to quickly transition to what you mentioned, architecture, because I think that’s, that’s, um, you know, it’ll give the lens on that and how, how I look at the world. [00:07:00] Um. Okay. So effectively, you know, I went through science and the humanities, uh, and gradually migrated towards, uh, geography, you know, you could say macro thinking.

Um, and I started a, an architecture studio with my ex wife, which focused on eco construction. My thesis was on, uh, Intentional communities and how the internet could reactivate rural villages. Uh, so I was one of the early propotent proponents of what you call urbanism. Um, and this was, you know, more than 20 years ago.

And so I visited all the intentional communities and, um, and realized that they were unnetworked. They were quite technology averse, um, and just not ready for the 21st century. On purpose, maybe. Well, yes. There was an ideological resistance to technology because technology had led to industrialism and industrialism had led to us having to flee back to, you know, let’s say neobucalism.

Um, so I would say that if I have to connect this journey of, of me being somewhere between design, tech, and civilization. [00:08:00] Um, I see cities as a perfect way to sort of frame the questions, uh, because we’re not very good at living together well, one, and we’re not very good at living on this planet. Um, you know, uh, heading towards 10 billion in this century.

So, uh, how, how can we solve many problems at once? I think we need to think systemically. And. The cities for me is just a natural, you know, uh, systemic lens. It’s not because I love cities only, it’s just because I think it facilitates the conversation and the thinking to derive the intelligence that we need to become, at a planetary scale, biomimics.

that can integrate within the flow of nature, which we’ve failed to do so far. So the fifth industrial revolution for me is the one of biomimicry. Other people will tell you otherwise, but right now we’re very mechanistic and I really believe that, you know, we are at the dawn of our technological capability and consciousness capability to embrace what I consider the fifth industrial [00:09:00] revolution.

Giancarlo: Biomimicry is understanding nature operating principle and being Absolutely. 

Thomas: It’s also, I would say, first and foremost, learning from 5 billion years of evolution. If you look at, you know, one of my greatest mentors was a person called Jay Harmon, who, um, is a biomimicry designer. He’s the inventor of what’s called the impeller.

Which, um, he froze his bathtub and looked at the vortex and then he reverse engineered the vortex mathematically to create the shape necessary to induce a vortex in air and water. So he understood through that it can create exceptional optimizations. Uh, so for example, the fastest train in the world, uh, was designed on the basis of the beak of a bird.

So it’s all these things. I 

Giancarlo: see. 

Thomas: We basically are starting to understand again through technology and mathematics, computation, big data analysis, we can derive a huge amount [00:10:00] of information from the catalog of life. 

Giancarlo: Which, which we’re not doing in health, for example, where you look for linear solution to complex problem like nature is doing.

If you think about, you know, you are a system thinker and a futurist, so you see this, imagine you are a. Extraterrestrial who see this blue planet, what do you see are the main problems? And then we’ll go into the solutions. 

Thomas: Well, again, I don’t have a crystal ball, um, so, you know, I’m, I’m a, what I call a hands on futurists, you know, I’m experimenting, um, to, um, testing with people what might be ways of, you know, living more harmoniously with nature, um, and ourselves, I suppose, in the way, uh, or on the way.

Um, so. I see four big obstacles, I would call them, rather than problems. Because problems call for solutions. And solutions can be a little bit too radical of an expression of [00:11:00] solving, to me. I think sometimes, you know, you need to flow into the solution. A direction that’s, that is a solving direction, but solving can be a bit like, oh, problem fix, problem fix.

If you go into this pathway of problem fix, problem fix, you generate new problems as you go along. I understand. If you look at nature, the power of it is that there is no problem generated in the flow of nature. So, um. It’s sort 

Giancarlo: of constant flow. 

Thomas: Exactly. And so the notion of problem does not exist in nature.

We’ve invented the word problem. Also 

Giancarlo: the word issues bring the idea of, uh, of reparation, of, of, of some sort of solution. 

Thomas: Yes, I see them as obstacles. So if you look again at the flow of a river, uh, you arrive at a place and there’s a cataract and you, you have to, nature’s to overcome it, but it, it do it, it does it with time.

It does it with erosion. It does it with weather it does, et cetera. And then, you know, the river finds its way. So, so [00:12:00] I’m, uh, the, the four obstacles that I see, um, the, the first one is, you know, what I would call, you know, what we have. Broadly called global consciousness is misaligned and so we’re, we’re still in sort of cultural struggle.

We’re still fight for, you know, notions of territory, notions of who’s who and what’s what and who owns what. And you know, we haven’t upgraded our global OS, uh, to a level of, you know, um, I’d call localistic governance that’s, you know, capable of aligning with nature’s systems. So bioregionalism is an example of, you know, alignment.

We’ve got geographical separation, uh, between, you know, how human societies operate and how nature’s code operates. And you know, we, we, we may not redraw the maps administratively, but we can do it functionally. So for example, we can rethink riverbeds. and work between countries and really rethink the way that we integrate nature and we integrate with, you know, with life systems.

Transcending frontier. [00:13:00] Transcending, that’s beautifully said, you know, to transcend the borders we’ve invented so that we can reconnect. with that. And as we do so, uh, you know, we just have to have a lot more intelligence around that. So I’m very connected to the satellite intelligence community because space is our main resource to, to re, re engineer our relationship with the planet.

We know of climate science because of space and people forget that they’re like, no, no, no, don’t go to space. It’s a waste of fuel. It’s a waste of time. You know, we don’t need to go to Mars. Mars is not about Mars. Mars is about earth. Um, because this technology or these technologies are giving us the tools to reinvent our relationship to nature on earth.

Giancarlo: But why, why, why the Mars? Because to have an independent detached perspective? 

Thomas: No, it’s because the technological challenge generates the impetus commercially to be able to capable to release the technology that we need to put out low cost satellites. 

Giancarlo: And why those are important? 

Thomas: So are you familiar with Planet Labs?

So [00:14:00] Planet Labs is a fleet of satellites. There’s about two, three hundred now going around the world. Takes an image of the Earth every day, a resolution of one meter. Can’t see a face, but it can see a tree. It can see, you know, a tank. So with the Ukrainian conflict, we could see, thanks to Planet Labs, and Will Marshall is the founder, is a dear friend, uh, effectively, you know, we can put eyes on things that reveal the truth.

Before, we would have to wait for weeks and it was too late. Now we can know when deforestation incidents happen the next day. And they’re working with, you know, 80 governments around the world to empower us to make those, you know, visual decisions, which I think are so essential. Anyways, if we go back to obstacle one, obstacle one, yeah, I think that is an obstacle of, you know, recognizing that we need to rethink.

The way that we, uh, operate on the Earth map, um, and as a geographer by training, um, you know, this is something really [00:15:00] essential, um, and you know, many people I think are underestimating the importance of this transition we’re going through. Thank you to spatial technology. 

Giancarlo: But what are the symptoms right now of not doing that?

The 

Thomas: symptoms right now is that we’re poorly, um, It’s a, um, correlating nature systems with human systems. So we’re always in, we always sort of overly impact overstretch resources and utilization because we’re not using the data that we have to say, well, this is absurd. We’re killing this river. We are, you know, uh, not understanding that, you know, we’re not going to have, we’re going to have, uh, you 10 years.

And so these will create. Massive, um, shortages and stresses on many cultures and places because of climate change, for example. 

Giancarlo: Because we believe that we own nature rather than part of nature. Does that? Absolutely. And why is that? You think? [00:16:00] Where does that come from? From Descartes and the excessive intellectualization that they created, that has created the separation?

Thomas: Well, maybe. Um. I have a more simplistic way of looking at it, which is simply the, the rhythm of history, uh, has not given us the tools to understand, look at ourselves. We have not had a mirror, so, uh, space has given us a mirror. 

Giancarlo: In the West, because in the East, there was a huge mirror. 

Thomas: It’s true and not, because if you look at China, for example, um, one of the oldest civilizations, you know, they went through.

Catastrophic, cataclysmic destruction of their own natural capital. And incidentally, the Chinese government has still been the most powerful regenerative government. With the Loess Plateau, which was a completely abandoned, destroyed, you know, it was with almost a cradle of civilization that had become, you know, destroyed.

totally deteriorated and they [00:17:00] regenerated that. We’re talking about thousands of hectares and now the whole Yangtze River no longer has these dust storms, which was, you know, crippling people giving them, you know, pollution and, you know, lung cancer. So, you know, they’ve shown the way on a massive scale for what we’re doing in a very small scale and with regenerative farming.

Giancarlo: So, so basically for whatever, you know, the course of history has brought to us, we have, we are disconnected from nature. And so we, without having this harmonious relationship, we have this fracture, um, that, that, that, that has created, um, uh, This, this, this, this connection from nature, from nature and not being able to look at the sign like the Kogi said years ago, they said, you know, from Santa Marta in Columbia, these tribes had a clear understanding of the impact of civilization on nature because they were in this mountain that would go from snow to the sea level.

And they, they told that. They told us, be careful because [00:18:00] human activities, uh, are disrupting this, this, uh, natural, um, uh, natural cycles. So what you’re saying obstacle number one is to, you know, reconnect and, and, and transcend the border, transcend the frontier. And see at, at this, at nature as a, as a common good that needs to be preserved.

But um, yeah, that’s easier said than done. 

Thomas: Yeah. It is easier said than done. But the reason why I see this is so essential is because once you know what you’re doing wrong, you can do something about it and it’s, um, you know, you, you cannot, uh, um, images don’t lie. And, and that’s something that most cultures can understand.

And we did not have these tools very recently. You know, we’re talking about two years ago. So it’s a complete transformation in our global awareness that does not require consciousness elevation. So what we’ve been trying to do, you know, as regenerative culture, Um, [00:19:00] you could say activists over the past decades is we’ve been trying to, you know, ignite this, uh, relationship with nature and relationship with self, you know, that would give us this, you know, more planetary consciousness, but that hasn’t really been permeating and let’s say the 99 percent of the world.

You know, if we’re lucky to have 10 percent of the world who thinks roughly like us, that’s not going to be enough. Well, there are arguments for which 4 percent is the critical mass to start a movement, et cetera. We can discuss this from a sort of activistic point of view with that boundary is, uh, or threshold for critical mass.

However, you know, I definitely think we need a lot more people to be on our side. And once you have these technologies, then, you know, this awakening is no longer necessary through, uh, you know, greater consciousness. It’s. purely imagery. 

Giancarlo: So let me ask you again. Sorry, Thomas. I just want to make sure that we can simplify that.

So this technology, it’s satellite imagery that shows what 

Thomas: exactly? Oh, so I’ll give you a concrete example. If there was a, you [00:20:00] know, illegal logging happening in the Amazon, you know, there’s an image, you know, Monday and image Tuesday, and you can see literally which trees were taken off. How many And you say, well, this just happened.

How can you disqualify that? So you have evidence that’s unquestionable. Um, you know, can you tamper with it? Yes. You know, we have cyber warfare. Uh, however, they are one of the most, you know, cyber, um, criminality proof organizations currently because of them working with 80 governments. 

Giancarlo: What’s the name of the organization again?

Thomas: Planet Lab. Yes. I mean, I don’t want to stress the power of technology here, but what I want to stress is to not be technology averse. You know, I see a big risk in, and that’s actually my obstacle number two is this sort of leaning towards, you know, technology, utopia or technophobia. So many people, you know, going back to the land and that’s fantastic, but it shouldn’t go against the grain of us leveraging technology that we have that are helping us.

[00:21:00] Um, and I think there’s a, there’s a real risk here in a rift between the, say the pro technology and, you know, uh, against technology to simplify it. And that’s an obstacle of education. It’s an obstacle that I see as a very, it’s a technology literacy. That we need to, to, to really confront because if we, if we don’t do that, we’re not going to have the 90 percent with us.

And there’s no better way with, you know, within 10 years having everyone almost online, which has its own problems. I’m not saying it’s great to have everyone in the world online. I’m saying there are great opportunities with it. So let’s make sure we work with the opportunities rather than let it happen and make it take us over.

Giancarlo: Yeah, that’s why I wanted you to have in this podcast because, you know, in, in, in certain, I don’t know how to call them, but you know, the, the, the, the modern activist or the modern seeker or the third millennium paradigm shifters, there is this association with technology with the deep state. [00:22:00] And, uh, and, uh, and, uh, and the evil of the world.

But so this is very important that there are a company like this one that can map not just the, you know, deforestation, but the pollution of the river and, uh, and, uh, and this, um, aridification of the land and the loss of biodiversity and et cetera. Okay. So, so I don’t want to get lost in, uh, Obstacle and solution.

So obstacle, obstacle one, we are looking at this new technology from satellite imagery. Obstacle two is like, obstacle two is the, uh, technology aversion. And how do we address that? 

Thomas: So in terms of, um, getting people on board, um, I, I believe in two important aspects. The, the, the first one is I, a few years back, uh, I was invited to, um, I had my Galileo Galilei moment, um, invited to speak at the Pontifical Academy of Sciences at the Vatican for the Pope.

Um, as a futurist. [00:23:00] And so they invited three people to ask, as the church, um, the Catholic church was dealing with the reputational problems, which I may not mention. So I’m not very Christian myself, um, but I accepted the, the offer because, uh, it is the largest institution in the world, more than a billion followers.

If we can get a billion people to think in a certain way. certainly can move a needle. 

Giancarlo: It’s definitely an intentional community. 

Thomas: Definitely. That’s for sure. Um, so sometimes again, it’s on its own will, but, um, so, 

Giancarlo: sorry, I might lose the purity of the intention, but the commandments are there. 

Thomas: They are. 

Giancarlo: And they’re right.

And they’re, you know, anyhow. 

Thomas: So, yeah, this is a longer debate. 

Giancarlo: We are going to have you back in the podcast for that. 

Thomas: Thank you. So, um, so I was asked to, to reflect on the question, if the Catholic Church is an Um, was the largest, you know, known institution to mankind ever in history, uh, and it has mostly been known for [00:24:00] doing, you know, poor things to mankind, not being very kind to men, um, you know, how do you address this in the 21st century and I came from, running the largest and first impact makerspace in London in my community.

And, um, you know, we were effectively training artists and, you know, technology averse communities to technology to let them see, you know, have insights on how they could leverage technology to their benefit because, you know, obviously technology is moving faster than people. And so if. People are not updating themselves, they become outskilled and I want to upskill them so that they participate.

So, um, I guess the example I’m using here is we need to be able to educate people through, um, you know, just like we’re retraining people in farming, which I think is one of the most important things currently happening. I think we also need to retrain people in technology in which they can participate because what happened for centuries was technology was not [00:25:00] defining.

exclusion. It was defining, you know, the change of work. It was defining the change of society, but not exclusion. We now have technologies that develop exclusion in, in situ and at very high speed. Um, so we need to be able to generate participation, I think, in technology. And, uh, that only happens through environments of technology literacy that empower communities to take ownership of 

Giancarlo: it.

Education, education, education, 

Thomas: education, and, and education and doing. So entrepreneurship or education entrepreneurship in a community setting on a place based intelligence level. Meaning it’s not something that you do for the world. It’s not trying to create a startup that will be a unicorn. It’s trying to see what is a problem in your community.

Sorry for problem, an obstacle in your community that you may be able to address with some technology. So example, uh, in my neighborhood in London, we were in East London, we were, I started the largest independent cultural incubator [00:26:00] in, in, in the UK, uh, called the Lyme Wharf, which is still there, but you know, now it’s just a self, a self, uh, um, organizing community of professionals because I don’t live there anymore, but I was, you know, I designed it, uh, a set of buildings and I curated them.

And over, over time, it, it gradually. became an incubator for circular economics at the neighborhood level with the help of 11 institutions, including MIT. We co founded the fab city initiative with MIT, uh, where I was a fellow. And we also got funding from, um, you know, uh, Alto university. And, um, uh, a range of European institutions to modelize, for example, waste streams that could be upcycled in a neighborhood.

So we were taking milk cartons and making, um, objects for the homeless, uh, out of them. And looking at that. So repurposing. Repurposing wastes. And, uh, training people in technology and, you know, creating new business opportunities and, [00:27:00] you know, giving new opportunities to those who were excluded. And so this was, you know, we’re talking about a few dozen thousand pounds that, you know, has been used as a blueprint for neighborhood circularity.

And, you know, I really believe in these things because they’re, uh, fundamentally prototyping and experimenting with what neighborhoods can do. And so what intentional communities were trying to do in an extracted way from normal society, we can try and do back in cities, in communities, in neighborhoods.

Giancarlo: Yeah, that’s very interesting. So, so the, the power of, um, you know, practical application of technology on the, on the community level. Yeah. Um, would you, do you have an obstacle number three? Yes. 

Thomas: So, so obstacle number three for me is a bit more, um, what you could call. sophisticated because it requires, um, you know, to, it requires a lengthy patient [00:28:00] process to deal with, uh, the intricacies of our governance, uh, economic models.

Um, and, you know, we’ve created a very, Um, dynamic and complex, uh, world system, ecology of governance tools, that’s not very favorable, uh, and mutable, uh, we see, for example, with cryptocurrencies that, you know, whether we like them or not, you know, they’re a necessary player and changing the way that we do disintermediation from, uh, let’s say the owners, uh, and the users of capital.

Um, and we have too many layers of intermediaries and we need to cut that and decentralize more. And, um, you know, if the journey of the first three industrial revolutions was centralization, the journey of the fourth one is decentralization. Um, and, um, we can see that friction between those, you know, two centuries of centralization, uh, or even you could say two millennia.

[00:29:00] Um, and this very fast journey of the past two decades, uh, gradually moving to decentralization. So the obstacle for me is, um, in terms of leadership, We need to educate leaders to be more accepting of the changes that need to happen in order for them to find their natural friction with world systems, so that they can create their new format.

It’s not about breaking the old only. It’s about shaping the old with the new with the old. And so this bridging. It needs to happen through leadership intelligence and we see certain mayors in certain countries. For example, the mayor of Miami embraced crypto. What has it done? Miami is the fastest growing city in America and it’s partly because of his technology readiness.

Giancarlo: Let me, sorry to interrupt, before we go into the solution, why is centralization bad? 

Thomas: That’s a long, uh, uh, one. [00:30:00] However, um, I would say just to, again, in my view, and there are many views on this, um, but the first one is that it’s the further away you are removed from a problem or an obstacle, uh, the less you’re likely to make the right decision.

So centralization creates a distance from the issue at hand that doesn’t make you The qualified decision maker, disempowering, disempowering, distancing, and ultimately, I really believe in the karma that we are putting into decision making, leadership, et cetera. If you keep making wrong decisions, you piss off people.

If you piss off people, you disempower them and their reaction is revolt, not contribution and participation. 

Giancarlo: That’s what happened with the authoritarian regime from the right of the, of the, of the communists. 

Thomas: Exactly. So centralization leads to poor decisions and central and poor decisions leads to, you know, um, I would say, um, allergic [00:31:00] social reactions and allergic social reactions can be beneficial to interrupt the path of centralization or authoritarianism.

So I’m not disqualifying, you know, um, I’m deeply involved with the strategy, uh, with, uh, Extinction Rebellion. So I believe in those methodologies to do non violent, you know, revolution, if you want. Um, but I disagree with the fact that the path of history, which is accelerated through technology needs to necessarily go through the frame of revolution.

There are many, many, many places, many, many things that we can address with intelligence rather than revolt. Thank you.

Giancarlo: I see. So the example you were suggesting to get out of the centralization model into the decentralization model, you mentioned crypto and the blockchain. Maybe you want to explain a little bit better for people that are not familiar. 

Thomas: Sure. So, um, I don’t want to sound like a, um, You know, uh, technology, uh, fan here, because that’s not kind of my, my personal life journey.

I know I embrace technology from the [00:32:00] standpoint that it’s there. And if we disagree with it too strongly, it will actually win, uh, you know, the arm wrestle, you know, it’s sort of fighting a robot is very difficult. And So I want to, you know, sort of weave a relation with technology that empowers humans and give human technology a human face.

So I want to mention this because otherwise I fear that, you know, this podcast would sound like, you know, I’m trying to, you know, impose technology. So in terms of the, the, the, the decentralization kind of, you know, opportunities, I would call them, uh, yes, there’s, you know, uh, blockchains, um, but there are, there are a lot of other things, you know, for example, um, I’ve been one of the pioneers of what you can call the participatory placemaking movement.

So I’m one of the co founders of a thing called Placemaking X. Um, and, uh, I wrote a book called The Recoded City, which is today the manual for how to do participatory placemaking. So first of all, what’s [00:33:00] participatory? Well, it’s self explanatory, but it means that you’re creating the opportunity for those who are not experts to participate in the journey of change.

That they will be ultimately the recipients of and traditionally, when you look at urban planning and urban design, you know, communities are recipients of them. They’re not the makers of it. And if you look at intentional communities, for example, that was the strength of them is that communities were deciding how they would shape their life.

They would then live in that container. So most cities are not designed that way. And with where we are in history and where we are as people, the opportunity of participation exists. Placemaking is broadly, you know, the slew of professions. So I’m an architect, an urbanist, a placemaker, a, you know, designer, a, you know, so all these things, they sit in that box.

So I’m called a professional, but, but for example, if you were not Giancarlo, a professional in placemaking, I still consider you a placemaker if you’re given the right [00:34:00] opportunity. So it’s giving the tools of designers to those who are non designers was the journey I was on. And I created a nonprofit organization, the first of its kind in 2008 called Clear Village, because that’s basically what I’ve been working on many, many, many, many years, to look at, you know, these intentional communities, 21st century.

Well, are you familiar with the Dunbar number? Is that something you’ve heard of? 

Giancarlo: It’s the minimum number where people get along, 130, something like that. 

Thomas: Yes. It’s, um, a primatologist called Robin Dunbar who looked at the optimum primate, say the primate group size. And so it’s roughly 

Giancarlo: 140. 

Thomas: And, um, you know, it, all it means is that we’ve been evolutionarily conditioned to optimize our group size and on top, uh, roughly that number.

Giancarlo: Because, because It’s, it’s enough people to have diversity, but not so much to have anonymity. There’s that part. 

Thomas: And there’s also purely how you organize, you know, food, parenting, sexuality, spirituality, you know, there is a sort [00:35:00] of optimum critical number that we, that you need. And then if you go past that number, then your brain shuts off and you start to have, let’s say, relations that are less, uh, Um, intense or intent, and then you lose quality in relations.

And what we have today is the dilution of relational quality through social media. 

Giancarlo: Yeah. 

Thomas: I mean, dilution is a euphemism. It’s like fracture even. Yes. But I, I, I like to be optimistic with the fact that we’re still in generation one social media. You know, we’re still learning. It’s a new tool. Uh, so I don’t want to just disqualify social media.

It’s brought fantastic things to, we wouldn’t have had, you know, the, uh, Arab spring, you know, potentially is the Arab stream good or bad. I don’t want to put a name on it, but there are things that we need to accept that social media can be useful. So anyway, um, so I’m, I’m, I’m looking at. The, uh, aspect of, you know, this third obstacle around, uh, you know, decentralization.

Um, and, uh, I, I, I strongly believe that from an [00:36:00] analog or digital perspective, you can create participation frameworks, uh, that engage, you know, citizen contribution, uh, participation that really create a buy in and co ownership of the, Issues at hand. And once you do that, you know, whether you, you succeed or you fail, you feel differently.

And I think there’s a problem with the feeling we have towards history. People, young people, you know, for the first time, almost in, you know, known history, you know, think that tomorrow will be worse than yesterday. And this is, this is the first time we have this absolutely overwhelming feeling. So there’s a feeling of impending doom and that’s not empowering and knowing that it’s going to be worse doesn’t mean it’s going to be worse.

But you may disengage and if you disengage, there’s too much to do. And, and once you do, you feel better. So I’m a big believer in participation. 

Giancarlo: But so, sorry, this is a stupid question, but, uh, participatory, um, placemaking the [00:37:00] workplace relates to your physical house. Not 

Thomas: only, but you’re right. Your community, your so placemaking can be a hybrid of, you know, we are now entering, you know, Web3 and metaverses, so I’m not putting the physicality of it.

Uh, I would say there’s a dominance of physicality because the, uh, let’s say the information quotient that you have in physical expression is so much higher than the digital. The digital is like a compressed reality. So it’s true that it empowers us to do incredible things at distance, and I’m not. But just you and me sitting in this room.

I’m sorry, Giancarlo, we’re exchanging pheromones whether you like it or not. I’m very glad to do so. So, um, so that’s. You know, it would be a, um, it would be unfortunate for people to, you know, uh, ignore as we go forward and in time, uh, that this contact landscape, the physicality of the world is incredibly information loaded [00:38:00] and that our brain only captures, you know, such a small fracture and our consciousness captures maybe a thousand times more than our conscious mind.

But, um, uh, it’s, it’s just, I would prefer to consider place. in majority at this moment, still a physical thing. 

Giancarlo: Yes. So for me, and I think for the Mango TV listener, for our community, this idea of, um, of, of, of building community is critical. And so, um, how do you recommend people go about, I mean, do you recommend people to find the 130 people to live with?

Thomas: So, I think they already have them. You know, the, the beauty of our current world is there’s no lack of contact. If you, you know, it’s, it’s easy to get in contact with people in most of the world because there’s a lot more people than there used to be. So in the, in, in throughout human history, we had to look for people and create communities.

Now we kind of [00:39:00] have to dissociate for communities because there are too many people around us. And then we have to reinvent our sense of community. Uh, so I think that the, the, the, the. The three key things there is to one is to really put effort towards, you know, deep friendships and recognize, you know, the importance of contact interactions, um, that are high leverage on our psychology, call it communal farming, call it, you know, uh, commune lovemaking.

That doesn’t mean polyamory. It just means being in the same room with people that you care for, uh, at the family moment. Um, so I think these are things that we need to really put in place. And there are ways to do so through activities. And most of our jobs today have been designed to alienate us from these moments.

So COVID was very healthy in that respect, where we were actually conditioned to have to rekindle those powerful moments of contact with others. The second thing is, The placemaking element, um, you know, can you associate with an environment in which you are more embedded and more deeply embedded in [00:40:00] contributing?

If you’re only a visitor and a, uh, I’ll call it a tourist of a place. Many people now are very nomadic. And I think it’s essential that people, you know, feel that they can be nomadic, but they can also be very rooted in a place. Um, so that’s this, this idea of rooting in a place that I think is essential.

Some people have more than one. I have more than one. It’s just the nature of my history. Uh, the nature of me being multicultural and growing up in many countries. Um, and then the third thing, uh, you know, is to look at the, um, the associations between your, you know, I would say spiritual relation to life.

Um, and the manifestation through your Tribalium, your work, you know, what, whatever you choose your work to be, whether it is being an artist, a politician, or a contemplator, whatever it is, you know, your role, [00:41:00] um, you know, should be, you know, manifesting in place and be identifiable. You see many people who are ghosts, who effectively just live somewhere and, you know, they, they’re not in the place.

And therefore, you know, it’s hard for them to associate meaning with where they are. And I think that’s essential in the power of Ibiza today. I think really, um, for many of our friends who live on this island and probably why we’re drawn to it ourselves is because we have an opportunity at every moment of the day, deeply connect with, you know, um, you know, um, kindred spirits and people who through their work, uh, or expression of self, um, are, are not absent.

They’re present. Try to do that in New York. Good 

Giancarlo: luck. Do you know this English writer, John Harry, he wrote this book on depression, debunking the clinical trial and this idea that depression is [00:42:00] a chemical imbalance and, you know, he spent I don’t know how many years really studying Um, the origin of depression and, and mostly comes from lack of community and lack of connection.

So the like minded community is not really available that easily. And um, and so, you know, I feel that, um, what would you, may I disagree? Yeah, of course. That’s what we’re here for. So for some people, it’s very difficult to create the hundred 30 people and the authentic relationship with the connected relationship that give them this, the, the, the, the supportive emotional container that allow to find the purpose and not being a ghost for some people is not a choice.

It’s not an option. 

Thomas: I’m I cannot, uh, you know, I can only agree with what you’re saying and, and, and it’s actually from that observation that I start my, my, my analysis. So with, [00:43:00] with my wife, uh, Galea, uh, we’re very involved in obviously the psychedelic renaissance movement and also mental wellness, mental health, mental health and wellness.

Um, and, uh, You know, one of the things that we connected on in the sort of beginning of our relationship really was this, you know, I was thinking about how to build the containers for communities, and she was thinking more about how to prepare the person to be able to enter a container. So it’s a dualistic relationship that currently.

Is being impacted by a combination of factors of stress, one is technology, two is the speed of velocity of history, you know, so things change very fast and we have to deal with those, um, and, you know, overall, you know, there are lots of stressors and we get information about the stressors in our lives.

You know, at lightning speed, um, when, you know, there was a, uh, an earthquake two miles away from where you lived in the [00:44:00] past, you know, you’d maybe feel a shake, but you wouldn’t know that, you know, 200 people had died two minutes before. And now you know it immediately and whether we like that or not, um, you know, whether it’s good or bad to have immediate information.

It does impact your, your, uh, awareness and your availability to be in community and with yourself. So, um, why does it, did I say I disagree with you is because I think that, um, the opportunity to be in community exists everywhere. Um, not equally for sure. Um, you know, there are places where there’s trauma, there are places where there’s not enough, um, communal, of, um, you know, of ideas so that people can let themselves go.

Um, you know, so I’m not going to say, I’m not an, uh, an idealist in that respect. But even in the worst places in the world, you know, I was involved in the humanitarian effort in Ukraine. You see glimmers of hope that are just phenomenal. The sparks of humanity sit within us, they’re not outside of us. [00:45:00] And if people were able to reconnect with that strength that’s within them, I do think that they can open themselves up more readily to connect with others.

And once they do that, it’s that I see this as a journey of community building. And once you start the journey, it gets better and better and better, and it’s a healing path. And of course, you find lots of, friction with reality. So I’m not, again, an optimist purely. Um, but I do think that, we have unlearned What we would do naturally because we get our needs met through materialistic conditioning and before we were getting our needs met through actions that would embed us into nature and life and relations.

So for example, if you earn your living by being on a computer all day, then, you know, again, I’m not disqualifying that, but when is the moment? But you’re going to have to go out, you know, and touch a [00:46:00] potato in the ground and meet another person and exchange eye contact and you’re taking all that away.

So I think we need to build the opportunities for people to create those points of connect so that they get extracted from, you know, their need to feed themselves, you know, you know, just through money so that money buys them the life that they don’t want. into, you know, the moments that we need to have in order to, you know, create the conditions for our hearts to open to the other.

And I really think we’ve invented that civilization in that poor civilization design. 

Giancarlo: So how do we do that? How do we give people this opportunity? 

Thomas: Well, you have a guest coming, I believe, uh, today, uh, who’s a, uh, magnificent example of experimenting with that. So Tierra Iris here in the island of Ibiza, um, is, you know, organically growing.

Uh, growth community and, um, focused on regenerative farming, you could say, um, and, and collaborative farming. But, [00:47:00] you know, it’s, it’s this idea that, uh, you’re not programming the outcome, you’re programming the interaction. 

Giancarlo: Nice. 

Thomas: So we, we are consistently programming outcomes. And everything that we do now in modern civilization, we’re so focused on the monetization of things and their economic trick value in a value chain that’s, you know, extracted from our natural reality that, you know, we are slaves to that.

We’re not slaves just to the system. We’re slaves to the need to that duty to the outcome. Um, because that’s ultimately how, you know, we’re greasing the wheel of capital. And, um, so I’m not an anti capitalist, for example, uh, I’m not saying it’s the ultimate, you know, solution, but definitely think we need to put a lot of effort towards thinking about how we can create more situations where we’re not designing the outcome, but we’re designing the interaction.[00:48:00] 

Giancarlo: This is fascinating. And they make me think about biomimicry again. Um, but so, okay, so basically you’re suggesting that one of the way to create communities to physically Um, go and live together somewhere. So a lot like in Wales now, like the, they’re like special law that allow communal living and, and um, you know, Mango TV, um, developed, is developing a TV show called post capitalistic societies where we would have an host go and live for a month in Pachamama, Auroville, Finghorn, Damanhur, Tamera, all this intentional community.

We did Tamera.

Resonate from there is that, you know, what, once you leave in community, you want to make sure that you address psychological mechanism that, uh, where an obstacle in, in, in, in, in the full society, if you want, which is [00:49:00] mostly had to do with looking at reality through the prism of your own ego. And so in Tamera, they work on that.

Like every week, every week, every, like four times a week, they meet and they use this term that they mirror each other on a community level. So once the trust and the love has been developed, so people know that they’ve been mirrored out, love not out, you know, spite of mockery then, so I’m, I want to say that.

I just want to put out there that, you know, living in community is very difficult and, and, and, and I think that, you know, like there is the, the, the metaphor that, you know, if, if a plane is in trouble and is crashing or something, you know, before you help other people, people, you want to put the oxygen mask to you first.

So I think that we, you know, if, if. the advice for people that are, um, you know, alienated and, and, and, and suffer with [00:50:00] the depression. And if the, the, the advice is, okay, try to find a group of like minded people to live physically together. There is a lot of, of, of. you know, mental psychological work to try to really deal with your blind spot, because then otherwise everybody’s blind spot on a communal level would just expand the blind spot.

Do you want to comment on that? You have a psychologist wife.

Thomas: I know what you said is beautiful and, and I, I really deeply resonate with it. Um, you know, these intentional communities, you know, Finnholm, Tamera, Orville, you know, are what I wrote my thesis about 20 years ago and, and they were, they were, you know, they were exemplars and, you know, again, designing the interactions rather than the outcomes.

Um, and, uh, you know, where, what does that stand for me in terms of where we are or the, the, the, our, um, Unfortunately, too [00:51:00] few places that have the, you know, you have to almost leave the contemporary world and extract yourself from it to build another reality so that you can re engineer those relationships and interactions that are meaningful to community and to self.

That’s unfortunate. It’s, it’s not only unfortunate, it’s, it’s a tragedy. Um, and, uh, you know, it is potentially, you know, one of the main reasons why we would, you know, um, collapse, you know, to, to quote Jared Diamond, you know, um, theory of civilizational collapse. And at this moment in, in, in time, I still want to stay optimistic.

Um, because I find that the great challenges that we’re facing as a humanity, um, you know, are actually great motivators. Um, so it’s unfortunate we have to get so close to the wall, uh, or to the cliff. Um, but, but ultimately that, that may be what’s necessary. Um, uh, you know, I’m, I’m not, again, very religious, but in the [00:52:00] Baha’i faith, I’m, I’m You know, there’s a sort of a saying around, you know, the prophet Baha’u’llah who effectively announced that there would be, you know, a great crash that would, you know, create, you know, the, the greater peace, um, and, you know, there’s, there’s the small peace and the great peace and the, um, and I, I quite like this sort of, um, imagery because I definitely think that we’re, we’re, we’re still quite far from the great peace, um, and maybe the great peace is, is only, you know, Uh, a limit that we lean towards, you know, in our collective consciousness and planetary awareness.

And, and, and we’re always, you know, making smaller pieces, uh, with ourselves and, and, and with the planet. Um, but overall, you know, I think we’re facing this wall or cliff, uh, from climate extinction, you know, we’re in, and we’re, we’re, we’re definitely sort of, um, you More self aware than we’ve been, uh, that, uh, you know, things going business as usual is not particularly friendly to many.

So,[00:53:00] 

I guess where, what I wanted to respond to regarding your, your observation is that there is a, um, There is an opportunity, I believe, uh, to expand this, call it discrete innovation and experimentation that intentional communities have manifested over the past few years. You know, uh, I consider we’re generation four intentional communities, Orville is generation two, uh, Tamara as well, um, and we can go through these generations if you want, but We’re now in the process of doing generation four and, um, there’s an opportunity to look at these in many, many, many places of the world that do not require this abstraction from the world we live in.

Uh, and that’s partly thanks to digital technologies actually, because we can start to build neighborhood relations and reactivate those things. And, you know, [00:54:00] we’re seeing more and more tools for mental health, you know, being straight from your phone. And, you know, is that good or bad? I’m not going to put a qualifier.

I just think let’s use every tool we have, um, so that we can activate more people, uh, to give them the, um, uh, energy, I would say, and the, the, the, the sort of, uh, willpower to step into the zone of interaction. that will facilitate community building and ultimately be these mirrors that you need in many, many, many geographies.

Uh, so, you know, this is what some people call cosmo localism, you know, so that we are basically able to be, you know, cosmopolitan localistic individuals. So some people call it, you know, a new form of boho. because it’s a bit, you know, people who are wealthy who can do this, you know, smart nomads go from left to right and always feel that they’re cosmopolitan even if they live in a village.

So, you know, the, uh, the, the, the super luxurious village for the few that’s, you know, very green and eco, you know, kind of Earth ship, almost like, um, that’s, It would be [00:55:00] unfortunate if it was just left for the few, but I definitely think it’s not only that. And we see some of the happiest communities are, uh, interestingly, I was involved in, uh, setting up a refugee education program with MIT.

Uh, so we co founded this program and brought it to Jordan and we trained refugees. Um, in artificial intelligence, uh, big data, um, you know, robotics, et cetera, things that they would have to go to MIT to train for. And we gave them micro degrees in an accelerated way with a job at the end. And, um, this first cohort that I was a futurist for and, you know, gave the initial lectures for, um, is now, uh, you know, educating, um, the King of Jordan’s, you know, high council on, on technology and they’re, they’re becoming, you know, so I’m just showing it’s the transition from being disempowered to empowered is sometimes very short.

It’s incredibly disruptive if you can empower people who have the energy. So energy to manifest your willful [00:56:00] community sense and contribution to community where you live, um, I think is something which, you know, we should not underestimate. Yeah. Obstacle four is a, um, you could call it a more heart centered one.

Um, you know, I definitely think that we have to consider women As our main ally to a better tomorrow. So I’m going to say that I’m, um, I’m consistently reminded, you know, I’ve been a mentor to now over 30 women entrepreneurs, um, it’s something I chose as a young entrepreneur, uh, to do. And, um, it’s just given me some of the greatest joys of my life and, um, to be Uh, giving mode and it’s given me more than anything else to see the blossoming of women.

Giancarlo: Amazing. How do you qualify a woman listening to us? How do they qualify to be mentored by you? 

Thomas: Oh, well, I mean, it was just because, you know, I was so called an expert in something, whether it was [00:57:00] entrepreneurship or design or technology. You know, and then I, I sort of gave time there and I had, I’ve been involved in many incubator and accelerator programs.

Some I founded the one with the Vatican, uh, under the hospices of the Pope’s Laudato Si encyclical. Um, this was in 2016. Um, and then I had my own incubator, accelerator environment in the machines room, which was my fab lab, uh, inside the Lymor. 

Giancarlo: But, but, but specifically the woman incubator, this is something that is still going on.

Thomas: Yes. I would say when I meet a woman that I find has extraordinary resources to contribute to where we are, um, I want to, you know, be of service. And, um, I, I, I’ve really kind of enjoyed, uh, learning from, you know, how they have to behave in society in order to, you know, perform as well as a man. Does that make sense?

Uh, so I learned more from that than they did probably, you know, because I saw all the, Uh, [00:58:00] frictions with, you know, society and, you know, all the things that they have to do to be treated fairly intellectually, professionally, um, they have to hump through a lot of hoops and um, and there are tricks, but overall, um, I guess, where was I with that?

Giancarlo: The fourth obstacle is about the heart. 

Thomas: Yes, and so I think it’s, it’s empowerment, you know, of the non white male, if I had to, um, you know, simplify, you know, the kind of view. So I’m, I think women is the largest contingent of that, but there is more, you know, there’s indigenous, uh, leaders. And cultures and civilizations that, you know, I’m involved in through an organization called ICEERS.

Uh, so I really believe in maintaining the sacred being so essential to the psychedelic movement. Um, and it connects me with indigenous cultures. Um, but in general, so you have, um, you know, uh, people of color, uh, in certain countries, uh, you have, of course, you [00:59:00] know, cultures that are being suppressed in certain geographies, you know, whether you call China, which is effectively Han civilization, um, which is quite limiting.

And you know, just we’re completely suppressing the contribution of the majority of the world. So how can we not see that as an obstacle to our thriving? 

Giancarlo: So the obstacle is really excessive empowerment of the white male. 

Thomas: Yes. Um, and, and, and leaning into that. And here’s a really problematic aspect of technology or technology, education, technology, entrepreneurship, technology, successes, unicorns, you know, the finding the unicorn has led us to.

Um, You know, um, empowering the white male nerd to a, um, very problematic degree, um, because it’s just reinforced the suppression of the balancing factors that we had. Um, and even though we can say there’s a lot of empowering through technology, [01:00:00] um, I think we need to be more aware of this. And I have to say, I don’t really, um, I’ve not appreciated the way that Me Too or, you You know, sort of pushed through society.

Um, I think it’s been a bit forceful, uh, sometimes a little bit, um, I’m not going to say ignorant because that would be, you know, judging, but I think it has. Um, you know, if you look at Israel, you know, during a certain period of time, you know, if you think of Israel being founded from, you know, uh, the Holocaust almost, and you see some of the work, you know, in the Gaza Strip, um, you know, it’s, it’s shocking and, and it’s, you know, I’m not going to again put fingers on any, on anyone, but we seem to be very, you know, Um, incapable of remembering and, you know, putting our, uh, heart focus on, uh, inclusion.

And I think it’s, it’s more about inclusion than, you know, penalizing. I [01:01:00] want to go back to Mandela’s forgiveness theories. I think we need to forgive ourselves a lot more because we need, that is how you include others. It’s not by creating laws to say, I was working in South Africa 16 years ago on a black empowerment project.

And it was limiting the competency of the people we could hire to train the same people we’re trying to empower. So, you know, laws and regulations and frameworks and penalizations, you know, for me are less interesting than forgiveness, incentives and mutual education. And so I would definitely, you know, be a, uh, proponent of, um, you know, training grounds where people learn, for example, to communicate with each other, like we do in couples.

God knows it’s hard to listen to each other, even with the greatest intelligence and intent. So I think we need to, you know, really be more aware of our need to learn to listen. I need to learn to be inclusive in nature rather than, you know, by this, [01:02:00] by force. Um, and, and that to me will empower billions.

And if we do that, then, you know, if you have billions working in the right direction and, you know, and you multiply that by two, I think we can overcome incredible obstacles. 

Giancarlo: Yeah. Yeah. And, and if I may add, you know, the, um, I think the important thing to keep in mind if we want to increase communication among us is this idea that, you know, our mind is a battlefield, is a minefield of bias and conditioning like Audrey Marcus says.

And so if you don’t do the work to identify this bias and conditioning, then, you know, then again, we go back to this idea of the blind spot and that communication become, you know, is, is like your like. half present. And so how do you deal with the, you know, bias and conditioning? We’ve been discussing that on Mango TV with, with, with, uh, you know, neuropsychopharmacologist and psychologist and [01:03:00] shaman and mystics and tantra teacher, you know, all this way to, um, you know, uh, uh, more embodied spirituality that get you out of the, out of the mind.

And the tattoo for your biography, your environment and your cultural conditioning in going out of your mind. And so if everybody does this work, there’s a better chance of getting along. 

Thomas: Absolutely. 

Giancarlo: Do you have a obstacle number five or I can recap the four. if I can. 

Thomas: I think there are many other obstacles that I could mention.

But the reason I chose those four is because I think that they, they work together to either tires to a tomorrow that we embrace with love and care and affection or, you know, they’re going to cripple us. Um, and um, uh, you know, I, I’ve preferred to choose, you know, slightly intangible obstacles rather than very tangible ones.

You know, if you want to [01:04:00] go into the specifics of how we design cities, how we, you know, uh, transform our, you know, land use and farming systems. If you want to go into, you know, all these things, um, I would love to, you know, go into them. You know, I, I’ve had a, um, you could say a range of, um, uh, systems thinking journeys, uh, that I would love to share.

However, I, I feel that in this context, you know, where the, um, uh, the way that, you know, the way that people can look at themselves and feel that they already have the resources to get access to the tools that will empower them. And to me, that’s essential. You know, I, I find a lot of people completely disempowered.

And disengaged, and it’s not that the opportunities are not there. So they’re struggling to see them, and they disconnect from them. And when they do that, you know, we’re all losing. You know, one soul [01:05:00] lost, you know, is, is our soul less, is our soul lost too. 

Giancarlo: Amazing. And thank you so much for offering to go in more details about how to build, um, urban city around regenerative agriculture, because I think that’s what we’re going to do at Holotropia in our panel about, um, you know, regenerative civilization.

So let me see if I can do that. So, and forgive me if I simplify and, um, and, and, and barbarize your thoughts. So you see the first obstacle is this disconnection with nature. Which, um, which, which, which solution could be this, this new satellite imagery that can tell you in real time what’s happening in term of deforestation and pollution.

The second issue you see is this idea of, um, aversion towards, towards, uh, technology that’s creating a lot of this empowerment. There is a lot of way to, [01:06:00] use technology without being used by technology. The third issue you mentioned is this idea of excessive concentration also has created this empowerment.

And, and then, you know, you mentioned blockchain as one of the tool of decentralization. And finally, this idea of, you know, the heart and getting along better. And I see in these four issues, the common thread is, This empowerment versus empowerment. I deeply resonate with that, and I’m very grateful about your more, if you want scientific and, and mainstream approach, because we love our Ibis a community and the dreamers and the, you know, the modern seeker, the third millennium, um, people that see this third millennium as really a tipping point in consciousness and a mass awakening.

But I like your approach of, you know, working with government, working with, within the system. Is there anything else you want [01:07:00] to add? We’ve been together already an hour and 10 minutes. 

Thomas: Well, thank you. First of all, Giancarlo, I think what you’re doing is, is extraordinary because, um, you know, this is about a cultural translation.

Um, and, and, um, I would, um, You know, I see myself as a seeker, um, and a person who, who likes to, uh, test, uh, ideas. Um, and over my career, which is, you know, uh, quite diverse, um, I would say that, uh, Um, you know, this, this notion of empowerment and disempowerment has been the thing that I, I’ve been hitting the most, uh, as a sort of, uh, critical threshold for, for us to, you know, be able to deal with problems and, um, I guess the role that I’ve, uh, slightly invented for myself, even though I feel like I’m more of a spiritual person is to be a bit of a bridge.

Between, let’s say, this community in which [01:08:00] we very luckily live in, of people who are always looking for, you know, not answers, but looking for paths, um, you know, out of the, um, you could say, the vortex that our current world systems is pushing us through and into, um, and I, you know, if there’s anything else I would like to add to that, Um, is that the spirit of hope is something that, um, you know, some people, uh, are capable of expressing with great power and authority, you know, having worked with the Pope or, you know, having had the opportunity to be connected and tied to some of the Dalai Lama community.

or et cetera. These, these are individuals, whether you like them or not. But what do they actually, what is their power? It’s a soft power. And I really believe that we’re in a moment of soft power in [01:09:00] history. And everything that we are so faced with feels so hard and feels, you know, infrastructurally heavy.

Um, and the, the, the conditioning that we have for the, you know, the weight of our, global infrastructure, I think, will feel a lot lighter from the place of hope, the place of heart. And, um, it’s not woo woo. I think it’s actually the fuel source to make all of this sort of disappear because, you know, when you think away just, you know, there’s this, um, Uh, thing that I had the opportunity to do many years ago with Tony Robbins to walk on, you know, walk on fire and again, it’s just an image in your mind, but it’s powerful, you know, and can you can you walk on fire?

Yes, you can. Um, and it’s, it’s really, I want everyone to feel that energy. As much as possible, because everything that we’re learning from the way that we’re being treated and educated right now [01:10:00] is that we are not able to walk on fire that only some can. And I think that’s completely wrong. Um, and so this soft power that’s within us and within us, particularly in connection.

Um, I think we need to get. a lot more clever about focusing on because that is, you know, the, the language of together. And it’s not one which is intellectual. It’s a feeling. And from that feeling, you know, stems, uh, your authority as an individual in community. 

Giancarlo: Yeah, that’s so well said. And, and, and the neoliberal capitalism artificially created the sense of being incomplete, the sense of scarcity so that you consume.

So it’s very counterintuitive for people that are connected with the general media. You know, they have the power, they can do that. So thank you so much. And thank you. We’ll see you for all Autropia and we’d love to have you back in a few months to hear more what you have [01:11:00] been up to. With great pleasure.

Thank you. Thank you so much. Take care.